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Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states


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And many would argue that in the same way that Jews have been persecuted for centuries the Jewish state is now persecuted.

 

Some do, but I don't.

 

 

But you are saying that is the case here.

 

I would agree that it is hard to imagine any Jew hater not hating wider Jewish institutions.

 

You are saying that for many people Israel’s actions don’t lead to hatred of Jews

 

Many people hate the Zionist state, but have no issues with the Jewish people and culture.

 

But you are saying that Israel’s existence and actions do lead to a pejorative view of Jewish culture for some people.

 

Had Israel been a different (less radically chauvinistic) kind of project, attitudes towards Jewish culture would probably be much more positive today.

 

What I think you are saying in your post is...

 

...That classical pre 1948 anti-semitism is nowadays sometimes expressed through hatred of Israel.

 

Some people hate Israel who do not hate Jews as a race or culture.

 

Israel’s actions puts Jews and Jewish culture in a less positive light for some people.

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But you are saying ...

Sorry but I don't follow this at all. I think you are suggesting I am saying things I'm not.

 

What I think you are saying in your post is...

 

This part is clear.

 

...That classical pre 1948 anti-semitism is nowadays sometimes expressed through hatred of Israel.

I wasn't saying that, but it is probably true.

 

Some people hate Israel who do not hate Jews as a race or culture.

Yep.

 

Israel’s actions puts Jews and Jewish culture in a less positive light for some people.

Yep. Indeed, going back to the Balfour period the anti-Zionist Jews were predicting that the Israel project would lead to exactly the backlash of opinion against all Jews which has come about.

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This

 

And many would argue that in the same way that Jews have been persecuted for centuries the Jewish state is now persecuted.

 

Some do, but I don't.

 

 

seemed to be at odds with this.

 

I would agree that it is hard to imagine any Jew hater not hating wider Jewish institutions.

 

Yep. Indeed, going back to the Balfour period the anti-Zionist Jews were predicting that the Israel project would lead to exactly the backlash of opinion against all Jews which has come about.

 

After 2000 years of persecution and 6 million dead in the Holocaust I imagine a number of Zionist Jews weren't exactly expecting an Israeli nation to be the toast of the town.

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Who says Quassam rockets don't kill people? Every one of those dead Palestinians is a victim of Hamas' Quassam rocket attacks.

Just as every one of the people shot dead on Bloody Sunday was a victim of the IRA's bombing campaign ? Or is that different somehow ?

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Every one of those dead Palestinians is a victim of Hamas' Quassam rocket attacks.

Perhaps you could talk me through your reasoning which produces such a theory? In particular how do you reconcile the fact that the Israeli state was built using exactly the same terrorist strategies and tactics employed against them now?

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Just as every one of the people shot dead on Bloody Sunday was a victim of the IRA's bombing campaign ? Or is that different somehow ?

 

You don’t see a difference between a state sanctioned, Geneva conventions concordant military response to continued armed aggression from an organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel; and the British army shooting unarmed civilian demonstrators in the back?

 

Odd how some people can’t make distinctions like that when Israel is one of the parties involved.

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You don’t see a difference between a state sanctioned, Geneva conventions concordant military response to continued armed aggression from an organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel; and the British army shooting unarmed civilian demonstrators in the back?

What's the moral distinction between shooting unarmed civilians and bombing unarmed civilians ?

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Odd how some people can’t make distinctions like that when Israel is one of the parties involved.

I find it odd how otherwise intelligent British people can twitter "Oh, poor little Israel, may "she" not protect "herself"?" as though Israel were some sort of lovable little Dickensian urchin, rather than (if we must "personate" it) a heavily armed thug with a seriously bad attitude (and telephone numbers of US cash and aid to keep him in ammo). It's probably something to do with our "unbiased" media (hollow laugh).

 

I do not support Israel at all, because I do not support terrorism as a method of attaining your objectives and, unlike many people, I include Zionist terrorism in this. Israel was born in terrorism; it has survived six decades through terrorism. And I doubt that lasting, or possibly even temporary, peace with such a creature in your midst is possible.

 

Mind you, since most of that part of the world is held together by US satraps, and since the US can "muddy the waters" better than anyone else, it's doubtful whether anyone outside the US has much chance of ever knowing what the hell (a singularly apt word in this context) is really going on anyhow.

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...a state sanctioned, Geneva conventions concordant military response to continued armed aggression from an organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel

 

How about a little quiz.

 

1. Who said:

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.â€

 

2. Who said:

We actually provided the example of what the urban guerrilla is, we created the method of the urban guerrilla.

 

3. Who assassinated the United Nations Security Council mediator Folke Bernadotte?

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"Full Responsibility for the First World War, lies squarely on the shoulders of the International Jewish Bankers. They are responsible for Millions of dead and dying."

 

(US. Congress-Record 67th Congress, 4. Sitting, Senate Document nr. 346)

---------------------------------

 

"The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish planning and Jewish dissatisfaction. Our Plan is to have a New World Order. What worked so wonderfully in Russia , is going to become Reality for the whole world."

 

(The American Hebrew Magazine, 10. Sept. 1920)

----------------------------------

 

"By using the new atheist exile politics they [the Zionists] provoked and increased anti-Semitism in Europe which led to the Second World War ... The worldwide boycott against Germany in 1933 and the later all-out declaration of war against Germany, initiated by the Zionist leaders and the World Jewish Congress ..."

 

(Rabbi Schwartz, New York Times, Sep. 30, 1997)

------------------------------------

 

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

 

- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

-------------------------------------

 

 

 

We thank Zionism from the bottom of our hearts for their invaluable contribution to mankind's well being. For their relentless activities in the fields of humanity, world peace, racial harmony and human honesty. We hope fervently, that, when WWIII is over, a sufficient number of Jews survive in order to continue with their divine deeds on Earth. Who else will be able to organise WWIV, if these wonderful Zionists disappear with the rest of the Goyim? SHALOM!

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Perhaps you could talk me through your reasoning which produces such a theory?

 

The military action in which the Palestinians died is a direct response to quassam (and mortar) attacks. These people would be alive today if these attacks hadn’t happened.

 

In particular how do you reconcile the fact that the Israeli state was built using exactly the same terrorist strategies and tactics employed against them now?

 

I’m glad you regard Hamas as using terrorist strategies. To say Israel was built using terrorist strategies [alone] is not accurate, terrorist acts were used however.

 

You mentioned Lord Balfour in a previous post who as I’m sure you are aware did a lot more for the creation of Israel than the Irgun. The Zionist movement legally purchasing land in Palestine and immigration both legal and illegal played a bigger part in Israel’s birth than terrorist strategies, as did the refugee situation after the war when Jews from Europe were understandably not altogether comfortable with remaining in European countries like Poland, Germany and Hungary etc

 

One example in which Jewish terrorist strategies at the time differed from post 1948 Arab terrorist strategies occurred when Jewish terrorists telephoned warnings about the impending attack on the military target of the headquarters of British rule in Palestine situated in the King David Hotel.

 

NB I’m not too well read in this particular subject so I’m not saying that telephoned warnings and singling out military targets was necessarily the case for all the militant actions undertaken by Jewish terrorists at this time.

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What's the moral distinction between shooting unarmed civilians and bombing unarmed civilians ?

 

It’s not the means of civilians being killed (bullets or bombs) it’s the intent, motivation and circumstances behind it that I am making a moral distinction between.

 

Please tell me what part of this…

 

You don’t see a difference between a state sanctioned, Geneva conventions concordant military response to continued armed aggression from an organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel; and the British army shooting unarmed civilian demonstrators in the back?

 

…you don’t understand or don’t agree with.

 

Most people don’t like to see civilians being killed but most people also understand that military action often leads to civilian casualties. In what way have I not made a moral distinction clear between Israel retaliating against rocket attacks and Bloody Sunday?

 

If you still feel there is no difference between civilians being killed no matter what the circumstances or intent then I applaud the tenacity you have for a pacifist ideology and laugh at you childish mentality. Lets hope that if Samoa invades there are people around to defend you.

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...as though Israel were some sort of lovable little Dickensian urchin....

 

Where have you seen Israel anthropomorphised like that?! I would love to see where this has been seriously used as an allusion. Perhaps its just you.

 

If you want a country that makes a meal of its ‘little’ status look to ‘little Britain’.

 

The gentle thwack of leather on willow, when the clock strikes four everything stops for tea, the queen mum! god bless her, the Dunkirk spirit, the traditional sense of British fair play, stands the Church clock at ten to three? a nation of animal lovers…… and oh yes…..the God given right to stamp over the globe killing indigenous populations in the name of the King and the Empire…..Huzzah!

 

Now the biggest colonial terrorist (since you want to use the word for effect so incorrectly then so will I) the world has ever seen has to make do with killing Iraqi and Afgan civilians as an tool of US foreign policy so it can feel superior on the world stage. What a wonderful little creature Britain has been and is.

 

Are you a little Englander Mr Saxon? Does a tear well up in your eye and your upper lip stiffen when you pay taxes to your unelected archaic German monarchy?

 

Before you demonise a country you evidently know little about try reading about your own Dickensian nation’s history and current misadventures. If you’re too busy playing cricket, being the salt of the earth and loving animals to read a book about the subject just watch some Blackadder.

 

Edmund: “back in those days, if you saw a man in a skirt, you shot him & nicked his country.â€

 

Edmund: “ Well, you see, George, I did like it, back in the old days when the prerequisite of a British campaign was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns -- even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with dry grassâ€

 

George: Now, come off it, sir -- what about M'boto Gorge, for heaven's sake?

 

Edmund: Yes, that was a bit of a nasty one -- ten thousand D'watushi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves.

 

They'll be an independant Palestinian state living in peace alongside Israel long before Britain gives back any of its occupied territories in Northern Ireland, South Georgia, the Falklands or Gibraltar.

 

Stick to the morris dancing Saxon, its a slightly less embarrasing tradition than your insular little Britain jingoism :-)

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