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Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

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Where is the incentive for Hamas to observe the ceasefire if Israel does not allow goods to cross into Gaza?


Where is the incentive for Israel to send more goods into Gaza if Hamas does not stop rocket attacks?


Perhaps because they had agreed to open the crossings in June? By November, Hamas had managed to dramatically reduce the number of attacks (see the Israeli government figures I posted earlier in response to the biased claims made by the NYTimes) and it is quite possible that had Israel not sent soldiers into Gaza on November 5 the numbers of attacks would have continued to fall. I just wonder if the cessation of attacks was not politically convenient for the Israeli government?

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Okay. Enough ad hominem argument already.

It's time to let the Jewish people speak for themselves of their peaceful and democratic intentions.

With citations.



"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

- David Ben Gurion, 1937 ("Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs", OUP, 1985.)


"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not

even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you

because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not

exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place

of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the

place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman.

There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a

former Arab population."

- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann,

Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was

that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have

stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

- quoted by Nahum Goldmann in The Jewish Paradox, pp. 121-122


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the

aggressors and they defend themselves ... The country is theirs, because

they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in

their view we want to take away from them their country."

- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle,

which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2

citing a 1938 speech.


"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by

transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the

Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only

the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people

of Israel."

- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's "Ben-Gurion"

in a slightly different translation).


"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized ....

Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be

restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever."

- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.


"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must

also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is

interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated

clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."

- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner,

October 1961


"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we

came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."

- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969


"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return

them to."

- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.


"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God

Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."

- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971


"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his

question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?'

Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"

- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in

the New York Times, 23 October 1979


"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted

in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,



"[israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years

conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the

refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve

this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser


- Yitzhak Rabin, explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the

occupied land without stirring a world outcry, quoted in David Shipler

in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the

Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)


"[The Palestinians] would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed

against the boulders and walls."

- Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to

Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988


"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in

China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass

expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."

- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, speaking to

students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam,

November 24, 1989.

(Benjamin Netanyahu was also Prime Minister of Israel 1996 - 1999)


"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz

Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the

mass aliya [=Jewish immigration], and for the Jewish people, all of whom

will be gathered into this country."

- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial

service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic

Radio Service.


"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without

settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."

- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997


"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly

and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with

time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization,

or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation

of their lands."

- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of

militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France

Presse, November 15, 1998.


"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as

they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take

now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."

- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the

Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they

want more"....

- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000.

Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000


"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead

would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more


- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press,

November 16, 2000


"I would have joined a terrorist organization."

- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz

newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had

been born a Palestinian.


"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one

has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on


- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in

BBC News Online

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Oooooookaaaaaaay. :? :?


Gettin' a little uncomfortable with some o' the rhetoric posted herein.


"All Jews are baaad, m'kay?"


The quotes posted above "speaking for the Jewish people" are from a minority o' public leaders, many o' whom fought tooth an' nail, bullet an' bomb (much as Hamas, ironically) in the wake o' a Holocaust that claimed millions (yes, it DID take place, sorry) te found a country where they believed they would be safe from the constant persecution visited upon them down throughout the ages by the sanctimonious, self-servin' good Christian fowk o' this world. Our country (UK, not Shetland :wink:) did its damnable best te stop them, includin' blockadin' the land, imprisonin' fowk, shootin' others an even sendin' in the SAS et al te wipe out their leaders (Gasps fer breath).


While I do not, an' never will, condone their actions today, I can understand where their hatred an' blind stubborness te say "{'f' it was funny in Father Ted 'eck'} off!" te the rest o' the world comes from.


I spent two years in Israel as a youth (an another three bummin' around in the Middle East) an' have been back several times altho' I am now, as I have said, persona non grata there. I have te say, the views shown above are NOT those of the majority o' common fowk I met there, who just want te live life in peace. Yes, of course ye have yer hawks, an' - just as they tend te do in this country - they can occupy places o' power, but I am uncomfortable wi' brandin' all the "Jewish people" (shouldn't that read "Israeli", DamnSaxon?) wit' their politicians' opinions?


Did Tony Blair truly represent yez and yer views? Or Maggie T? Does Gordon Brown? Are ye not showin' the same blind ignorance in such rhetoric as is shown by the very ones yez are havin' a go at? An' what purpose will yer prolongin' the view of "us and them" ultimately have? Who will it gain? Will it save lives in Gaza? Will it lead te the peace talks so urgently needed? Would yez be happier if there was just one big massive global jihad an' all these nasty rich, media controllin', manipulative jews just be wiped out, so some other nasty rich, media controllin' manipulative goyim could take their place? (Not that I buy into the "conspiracy theory" wash anyways. Some fowk just know the maxims o' hard work, networkin' an' how to make money grow - much like yer local Rotary Club, or Lodge. Or are they involved in it, too? Those Illuminati swoines! :P)


C'mon, let's have some constructive discussion here, an' - while I'm on the subject o' negatively labellin' fowk - show fowk that Shetlanders are not inbred, knuckle draggin', alcoholic, manic depressive, obese, cross-dressin', Viking wannabes. (That last is NOT my opinion, BTW, it's culled from other posts an' several press articles, an' paraphrased as te show what happens when we lump fowk together under banners an' labels). :shock:


PS (An' as fer Albert Einstein, what qualifies him for sainthood? It could be argued that he was a mass murderer, seein' as how his research led te the A bomb! See how words an' labels can be wrong?)

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Good post abraxas, especially this bit:


I have te say, the views shown above are NOT those of the majority o' common fowk I met there, who just want te live life in peace.


I would suggest that the same is true for the majority of the Palestinians - it needs a negotiated political solution to provide peace for people on both sides, and that is becoming more and more difficult to achieve with each day the war continues.

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I am uncomfortable wi' brandin' all the "Jewish people" (shouldn't that read "Israeli", DamnSaxon?) wit' their politicians' opinions?

I would suggest that the most appropriate term to have used would have been Zionist (or one of the qualified Zionist terms). Israeli is more ambiguous and, for me, would primarily suggest the citizens of Israel. As such it would be as inappropriate in this use as the Jewish people, many of whom are neither Israeli or Zionist. It is worth pointing out that when I made a similar statement concerning Gibber's use of the term Jew rather than Zionist, he/she seemed to think Jew the more appropriate term.


PS (An' as fer Albert Einstein, what qualifies him for sainthood?

Who suggests this? I think if you check above you'll find that this has not been suggested. Before discussing the significance of his 1948 letter I made exactly the point that his views should not be given undue weight:

Now I think we all agree that Einstein's views should not be given any increased credibility due to his scientific genius nor due to his fame. Rather they are relevant only on their own merits. I think it fair to say that he tends to come across as a fairly civilised chummy character. For him to put his name to a letter which describes the founders and heroes of the current Zionist establishment in such vivid terms should I think be a sobering thought for everyone.

Was this unclear?

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I've rolled this thread back a bit. It descended into another Holocaust conspiracy argument and the content was either off-topic or personal in nature.


I have kept a copy of everything, should it be required.


Apologies for the blunt-instrument approach. Please stick to the topic and keep it impersonal. Ta.

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Guest Anonymous

I was listening to an interesting debate on radio 4 the other day and one person phoned into to say how Tony Blair was definately the wrong man for the job as Middle East peace envoy .

Due to his historical track record of being the British poodle to the Bush administration then i tottally agree they should get him shipped of the scene quick style .

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I was listening to an interesting debate on radio 4 the other day and one person phoned into to say how Tony Blair was definately the wrong man for the job as Middle East peace envoy .

Due to his historical track record of being the British poodle to the Bush administration then i tottally agree they should get him shipped of the scene quick style .

iwould suggest the french president he seems to be able to talk with them ok. but blair as a peace envoy no i dont see that working. he would have to be brave to have face to face meetings with some of the factions involved. he must be on there hit lists.

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