Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[Gibber]

There is a ton of evidence on that thread against your position just like there is in reality.

 

This demostrably false example highlights your flawed method best which I think is more fundamental than the flawed fantasies from Stormfront you are in love with and regard as evidence.

 

As I said at the time, well done on finding a primary source after you had posted a spurious reference to it and after I asked you to find it, your lack of other valid primary sources holding your position is telling.

 

And no I don't want to start it up again, I'm more than happy with that thread and how it makes your position look. Hard to understand why it was allowed to continue though.

[Gibber]

I would have thought an increase in the amount of goods let into the strip while Israel and Egypt maintain their blockade to stop the munitions would be a better starting point if you are truly anti-war. The blockade has stopped weaponry coming into Gaza, if the blockade is lifted weaponry will freely enter Gaza.

 

Do you know that if humanitarian aid were increased to an accecptable level would the Stop the War Coalition be in favour of a blockade of munitions to stop Hamas accumulating arms?

 

No , The Stop The War Coalition would not be in favour of the blockade remaining under these circumstances. We are neither pro nor anti Hamas.

 

I can't offer you a location to find STWCs position in writing but I can assure you that this is the case. Our aim is to end the blockade and the best way to achieve that is by gaining as much support as possible including that of Hamas followers.

 

Do you think you could try to get me something that STWC has published or declared about this?

[xoni]

I will be speaking to Alistair Cartwright some time during the coming week and will attempt to get any questions answered for you. I have trawled the STWCs website in some depth and cant what youre looking for myself so need to call in for help. Hope this suits.

 

What I have found for you however is a simple FAQ listed below which give the STWCs position quite clearly throughout.

 

Myth: Israel is a law-abiding nation seeking to live in peace with its neighbours.

 

The truth: In 1948, shortly after the embryonic UN gave 56% of Palestine to the largely immigrant, minority Jewish population, the Zionist forces drove out most of the indigenous Palestinians and took 78% of the land. They razed to the ground over 400 Palestinian villages, so that the refugees could not return. In 1967 they occupied the rest of Palestine, including Gaza, and began to settle their citizens in these areas, in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In 2002 they began the construction of the 400mile long barrier, largely on Palestinian land, using it to take land and water resources from what is left of the West Bank. The centres of population in the West Bank have been isolated into ghetto-like enclaves, surrounded by the Israeli army and illegal settlements. Many methods are being used to drive Palestinians out of their homes in East Jerusalem, which Israel has annexed, in contravention of international law.

 

Israel is in violation of over 60 UN Resolutions, which call for the return of refugees, withdrawal of the settlers, dismantling of the wall and a lifting of the siege on Gaza.

 

Myth: Israel is threatened by its Arab neighbours

 

The truth: Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic relations and trade agreements with Israel. Lebanon and Syria do not, as Israel still occupies part of their territory. Nevertheless, on several occasions the Arab League has offered Israel full normalisation in return for a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has refused.

 

Myth: Israel withdrew its settlers and the army from Gaza in 2005, but the Palestinians rejected this peace offering and simply resorted to more violence.

 

The truth: Israel did withdraw 8000 settlers from Gaza, after 38 years of occupation — but immediately sent 30,000 more to the illegal settlements in the West Bank (which now has over 450,000 settlers).

 

At the same time, it placed extremely tight restrictions on all entry points to the Gaza Strip, making it almost impossible for the local economy to function. From 2005–7 the Israeli army killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. From 2005–2008, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire.

 

Myth: Israel has for many years suffered terribly from thousands of missiles fired from North Gaza.

 

The truth: The first homemade Qassam missile was fired across the Israeli border in October 2001; the first fatality occurred in March 2007.

 

Up to November 2008 13 Israelis were killed by Qassam rockets. By contrast, between September 2000 and the end of November 2008 nearly 5000 Palestinians were killed, more than half of them in Gaza. The rockets have in the last year reached more distant targets, but in military terms they are ineffectual, compared to the fire-power of the US F-16s, Apache helicopter gunships, Merkava tanks and naval gunships with which Israel is equipped.

 

Hamas say the missiles are in retaliation not only for the many deaths Israel has caused both in Gaza and the West Bank, but also for the continued occupation and expropriation of land (see above). They say they hope to end the occupation in this way, much as Israel was forced to end the occupation of South Lebanon by Hizbollah.

 

Myth: Hamas broke the recent ceasefire, prompting Israel’s bombardment and invasion of Gaza.

 

The truth: In November 2008, during the six-month ceasefire, the Israeli army killed 14 Palestinians and tightened the siege on Gaza even more. In retaliation, Qassam rockets were fired on the Negev, killing no-one.

Israeli spokesmen have freely admitted that the assaults on Gaza were planned eight months ago — before the ceasefire. They clearly went into the ceasefire agreement without the intention of respecting it.

 

Myth: Hamas is an illegal terrorist organisation bent on Israel’s destruction. There is no possibility of Israel negotiating with them.

 

The truth: Hamas is a nationalist, Islamist organisation consisting of a political party, with a military wing, which for years was largely responsible for running hospitals and schools in Gaza, in a situation of military occupation. Even secular Palestinians saw them as efficient and non-corrupt.

 

When they came to power they offered Israel a ten-year truce, during which time negotiations could take place. Israel rejected this, and continued to quote earlier Hamas manifestos which called for the return of Palestinian land and property.

 

Myth: Hamas took over Gaza in a coup in June 2007, ousting the rightful government headed by Mahmoud Abbas.

 

The truth: Hamas won the 2006 general elections, which international observers considered free and fair, and formed a unity government in which MPs from Fatah and other parties were offered ministerial posts. However, in June 2006 Israeli troops abducted dozens of Hamas ministers and parliamentarians and put them in jail, while the US and other western governments joined Israel in refusing to recognise or speak to Hamas.

 

Israel and the US encouraged Fatah to stage a coup in Gaza, but Hamas pre-empted this in June 2007. Mahmoud Abbas is the elected President of the Palestinian people, but his party, Fatah, does not have a mandate.

 

Myth: Israel always tries to minimise civilian casualties — it is targeting only Hamas.

 

The truth: Israel has the most technically advanced weaponry in the world, with the exception of the US. Its computerised drone planes (which it sells to the UK) send back extremely detailed information about every square foot of the Gaza Strip. And yet hundreds of civilians have been killed and wounded, with the one power plant, ambulances, schools and hospitals being hit.

 

Myth: Any nation faced with missile or bomb attacks would respond with massive fire power.

 

The truth: For years Britain experienced terrorist attacks by the IRA, with many more fatalities than Israel has suffered. It never resorted to bombing civilian targets and infrastructure, but succeeded through patient negotiation.

 

Myth: Hamas uses the citizens of Gaza as ‘human shields’.

 

The truth: Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, with 1.5 million inhabitants living in an area about 25 miles long and five miles wide. There are no caves or forests to hide in or operate from — only urban areas..

 

Myth: Israel has the welfare of the people of Gaza at heart

 

The truth: Since June 2007 Israel has sealed off the Gaza Strip from the outside world, so that it is almost impossible to get in or out, or to import or export goods. Patients used to be able to leave Gaza to seek medical treatment elsewhere, but in the last year Israel has denied permits to most patients and dozens have died.

 

Myth: The people of Gaza are not really suffering — this is exaggerated for propaganda purposes.

 

The truth: John Ging, director of the UN agency for refugees in Gaza, Professor Richard Falk, UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Territories and representatives of Oxfam and other international aid organisations reacted angrily to Israel’s claims. For years they have been monitoring the situation and calling attention to the desperate and deteriorating plight of the people of Gaza.

 

Myth: People who criticise Israel are anti-Semitic.

 

The truth: To be anti-Semitic is to be racist towards Jews. But many Jews, and even Israelis, are highly critical of Israel’s policies. The policies of ethnic cleansing and seizure of land are rooted in Zionism, or the belief that Jews have exclusive rights to Palestine. To be anti-Zionist is to oppose this ideology and these policies. But Israel uses the anti-Semitism argument to intimidate people into silence.

[Gibber]

Nice one, appreciate it. If you could ask about Iron Dome too that would be great.

 

Do you mind if we don't have the big quotes on the 2 sides of the argument in this thread?, needless to say there is plenty of material that answers the STWC version of Isreal's existence and actions and cut and paste wars of the 2 versions tends to be a bit of a slog to get through and a bit of a distraction from discussion.

 

If anyone is interested enough to post I would urge them to think for themselves and look into it themselves rather than have screeds of text to wade through decided by other posters' cut and pasting.

[Gibber]

And that appears to be the Palestine Solidarity Campaign's 'myths and facts page' not something STWC has independently thought out for itself even if they do agree with all of it in its entirety down to the last word, no questions asked.

 

See what I mean? Did STWC debate the adoption of this as their own position? seems to me they have been "distracted from discussion" by a big pile of text outlining 1 side of the debate and then just used it verbatim as their own opinion.

[skaterboy]

Xoni do you really believe that truth/myth claptrap you posted.

It is complete and utter bollox,

Do yourself a favour and check out 1 or 2 of them, and then think for yourself. cutting and pasting crap like that will only reduce the whole discussion to farce

[skaterboy]

One more thing for every picture you see of Palestinian refugees living in squalor I'll show you ten of arabs living exactly the same way by choice.

[EM]

It is complete and utter bollox,

Really?

... check out 1 or 2 of them

Perhaps you might suggest which of the statements are least correct in order to simplify the verification you recommend? I don't see anything obviously dubious.

[Gibber]

Thats because you're prejudiced EM, you're hardly likely to find fault if your prejudice replaces thinking. Unless you can somehow show you're not prejudiced as I asked you yesterday, remember?

 

You have been at liberty to expand on this since you first posted it

 

True colours shown today I think. Nothing short of a state sponsored piratical massacre I would suggest.

 

with full reference to the armed mob attempting to kill the Israelis, the reason there were no deaths on the other ships and reference to previous precedent of navys boarding civilian vessels if you please darling, chop chop, you've already had over a day to show me that pronouncing Israeli massacres without knowing any other circumstances than a death toll isn't prejudice. Jenin should be a lesson to you.

 

Myth: Hamas uses the citizens of Gaza as ‘human shields’.

 

The truth: Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, with 1.5 million inhabitants living in an area about 25 miles long and five miles wide. There are no caves or forests to hide in or operate from — only urban areas.

 

Perhaps Hamas should smuggle in building materials instead of weapons to build bomb shelters for its population. Ah, but then if they didn't have weapons or a stated goal of obliterating Israel that leads to these weapon's use they wouldn't need bomb shelters.

[euripides]

Great post Xoni. At least some clarity and rationality in this debate - interestingly something Gibber finds "distracting" and "a slog".

[Gibber]

Great post Xoni. At least some clarity and rationality in this debate - interestingly something Gibber finds "distracting" and "a slog".

 

Do you want me to post a bigger longer list of myths and facts from the opposing point of view which of course turns the thread to polemic garbage (or is that what you want to avoid having to think for yourself)

 

perhaps you could bring some of your own thoughts and arguments to the thread and take issue with this (that I actually posted in response to Xoni's post) if you can

 

Perhaps Hamas should smuggle in building materials instead of weapons to build bomb shelters for its population. Ah, but then if they didn't have weapons or a stated goal of obliterating Israel that leads to these weapon's use they wouldn't need bomb shelters.

 

if you can't then Xoni's post isn't as great as you think, is it?, by all means back up your argument with quotations.

[EM]

.., remember?

Certainly. I fail to see why you have such a bee in your bonnet on that matter, but I will indeed provide you with clarification on predjudiced thinking, as well as the available facts which informed my suggestion of a state-sponsored piratical massacre. I have a feeling that we will have quite different opinions on even the fundamental terms. Am I right to infer from your comments that you do not believe it was a massacre? Or is it the piratical aspect which bothers you?

 

 

Perhaps Hamas should smuggle in building materials instead of weapons to build bomb shelters for its population. Ah, but then if they didn't have weapons or a stated goal of obliterating Israel that leads to these weapon's use they wouldn't need bomb shelters.

I presume that the above is your idea of humour, as I do not see how it could have been written for any useful purpose. Are we supposed to be having a good old chuckle?

[Gibber]

Certainly. I fail to see why you have such a bee in your bonnet on that matter,

 

Its the prejudging Israel bit I have a substantial bee in my bonnet about, pretty much everything thats wrong with unjust criticism of Israel stems from prejudice and ignorance. Of which you provided a clear example.

 

Perhaps Hamas should smuggle in building materials instead of weapons to build bomb shelters for its population. Ah, but then if they didn't have weapons or a stated goal of obliterating Israel that leads to these weapon's use they wouldn't need bomb shelters.

 

I presume that the above is your idea of humour, as I do not see how it could have been written for any useful purpose. Are we supposed to be having a good old chuckle?

 

No, address what you see is at fault.

[ArabiaTerra]

Gibber, why don't you address xoni's points, one at a time, and refute them, if they are wrong as you imply?

 

That's what I do on the Global Warming thread when people post rubbish.

[Gibber]

And then what, argue against 20 different shetlinkers each with a response to each counter-point?

 

I'm saying posting lists of cut and paste points from either side is counter productive. I've already posted a comment on one of her points about Hamas using human shields after EM claimed all the points were valid, without question. If anyone wants to address this I think that is fairer than me slogging through the first of many pasted lists holding up one side of the debate.

 

The alternative is a war of pasted lists which I can easily do. But shouldn't the Middle East be learning from us?