Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[NewMagnie]

Lets tidy this up a little - its starting to drift.

 

NewMagnie wrote:

Fair enough - but it’s a flippant throwaway remark on an internet forum, a fairly limited communications platform - if you want to turn it around into a personal insult, that's your lookout

 

I didn’t take it too personally, the moral equivalency between the two is invalid in my opinion.

 

I actually meant your personally insulting language, but never mind.

 

Besides, I stand by my own opinion on moral equivalency, It may be that I haven't explained it well enough though. Bear with me.

 

the legal use of phosphorus by the state

 

Sure about that? I'm fairly sure the UN/Geneva Convention take a firm view on the use of white phosporous in munitions.

 

Well you're conflating acts of state with individual wrongdoing

 

Wrongdong even. I'm not sure how I'm doing that but I'm sure you'll take pleasure in pointing it out to me.

 

I do believe that a state has a certain responsibility for the actions of those individuals in its employ, in particular its military. The more organised that military, the more likely that the actions of individuals is officially sanctioned rather than personal choice.

 

I'm inclined to believe that excessive force by a soldier in a modern military force representing a liberal democracy - with a robust judiciary - is more likely to represent an official position than that of a p!ssed off teenage jihadi with an afternoon's instruction in how to use a Kalashnikov.

 

the illegal use of Palestinians as human shields by individuals of the IDF who were (IIRC) or would be prosecuted by Israel for doing so.

 

Really? Given the Israeli state reaction to the Goldsmith report, I think its highly unlikely that any IDF soldier will face meaningful punitive action for this.

 

As for your selective interpretaion of 'extra-judicial' - it can generally be used for state sanctioned actions that are effectively placed outside the reach of the judicial system - such as Mossad shooting Norwegian waiters.

 

I demand a higher standard of Israel.

 

Good for you - you'll note that I'm not questioning your right to do so. For the record I don't 'demand' a higher standard of Israel, I 'expect' one. there's a difference.

 

NewMagnie wrote:

Maybe it's not a higher standard - maybe it’s just a standard that's closer to our own, one that's less alien and less incomprehensible. That doesn't imply that we hold others to no standards at all, but one size doesn't fit all.

 

 

If Israel’s situation and its resultant actions are incomprehensible to you then you are in even less of a position to dictate what it should be doing. You could start by asking yourself what you and your country would do in Israel’s situation.

 

I'm actually referring to the Arab nations, sorry if that wasn't clear. As a Western European, I find their world view harder to understand and I fear that I put a WE lens on their actions and misunderstand them.

 

My point is that Israel's society and history are largely intertwined with our own. The bulk of the non Arab population can claim European ancestory and the cultural norms of the country are therefore comprehensible to us, part of the reason for having higher expectations.

 

My point is that we shouldn't expect less from Gaza, Jordan or Syria but our expectations should be informed by the cultures and histories of those countries. Its going to take longer and will have to be done differently is all.

 

That said, all of them need to immediately stop the more redneck elements in their respective armies, militias or armed mobs from shooting each other and any poor sod who gets in the way.

 

Why is the criticism disproportionate toward one M.E. state, and indeed the only state that is a liberal secular modern democracy?

 

I think you've answered your own question.

 

But criticism of Israel should be valid and backed up by argument, if it is I’ll be the first to agree with it, demanding higher standards of Israel than any other country begs the question, what standards have you got that give you that right?

 

What, you're setting yourself up as an ethical arbiter now? I don't think I particularly need to establish my moral authority to you, just as I wouldn't expect you to establish yours to me. I accept your right to your opinion and more particularly your right to express it. Its a shame you don't have the same consideration.

 

Besides, where do I 'demand' a higher standard from Israel than "any other country"? I'll assume you're sticking to the thread disciplne and mean countries in the ME? I refer you to your own expectations, I expect and hope for more from Israel than Gaza (for example) because they are, in the main, a developed, socially democratic, liberal, pluralist society. (The latter has a ways to go before we can apply those standards.)

 

Although if you're an Arab family that's just had its farm bulldozed, you might struggle with that assertion.

 

No, I mean Jews are disproportionately responsible in view of the size of their population.

 

Understood - I understood your original post to mean that Jews were responsible for the larger percentage of cultural development in total.

 

But still, I find your quoting Jewish IQ scores in that regard as a little bizarre. For a start, I don't accept IQ measurement as accurate, or comparable across cultural groups but leaving that aside, a higher average IQ among Jews doesn't actually prove the point you originally made. Had you pointed to particular achievements (a quick google would do that for you) rather than 'average intelligence' you might have been onto something

 

Of course they can comment whatever their nation’s history but they cannot demand a higher standard from Israel than that of any other state.

 

Not quite correct - anyone is entitled to 'demand' anything they like. Whether or not its likely or desirable they get it is another matter.

 

Although I suggest that it's perfectly reasonable to 'demand' a higher standard from Israel than they currently demonstrate. For example, to not deny Israeli citizenship to Arab kids born in Israel, to not ethnically cleanse Jerusalem, to not use white phosporous shells, to stop building colonies in the West Bank.

 

It's also perfectly reasonable to expect the same of Gaza, but I refer you to the para above - what's likely and desirable. Of course it would be nice if Gaza could become, as part of a wider Palestinian homeland, a peaceful, prosperous, secular democracy. I'd suggest they have a ways further to go though.

 

 

NewMagnie wrote:

That would be up to K and DS. I don't think I've posited any conspiracy theories.

 

I didn’t say you had.

 

Fair enough - probably best not reference it in a reply then.

 

And I can only assume that some sort of ‘wrongdong’ has occurred during your accounting procedure because statistically speaking I posted 3 articles, unless I’m also too innumerate to analyse my own posts of course. I’m of the opinion that cutting and pasting numerous articles scooped up from Google and letting the shear weight of text replace a supporting argument is the intellectually lazy thing to do as I’ve said in the past on this thread.

 

Isn't that what you've just done? The last cut and paste I read on this thread was on your post. What's your point?

 

I'm not going to go into your articles and links - largely one of them is based on IQ testing - a false science in my opinion - and also because 'this is the internet after all' - I'd waste an afternoon on google trying to refute them.

 

The "shear" weight of text in my posts doesn't substantially outweigh yours I don't think, although this internicine nitpicking does tend to produce some meandering epistles. I promise any further posts on this subject will be brief, pithy and devoid of detail.

 

I as a member of European Western democratic culture I demand a higher standard on the Shetlink Israel thread than any other thread.

 

At least you've dropped the 'Christian'.

 

Now, as I've said, this will be my last blow-by-blow nitpicky comment on this, but since it caused you such affront, let me clarify my initial remarks.

 

Sod 'em all refers not to the entirety of Judaic/Israeli culture nor to the Muslim/Arab world. It refers exclusively to the belligerents on either side be they be dressed in fatigues, keffiyahs or suits. (I'm happy to draw a distintinction between 'belligerents' and 'defenders' just to head you off on that one)

 

I'm more than aware that the contributions of Jews and Arabs (as well as Tibetans and Eskimos) have contributed to the wealth, stature and diversity of European culture, but I emphasise for the sake of clarity, past achievements (or indeed average intelligence) don't excuse any current behaviour that not only fails my personal ethics-meter but that of the UN and those guys in Geneva.

 

The converse applies, in fact. I'd argue you can't use past glories to justify current behaviour, but they do set standards against which your failures can be judged.

 

I'd further argue, that entitles anyone with a modicum of education and a reasonably clean charge sheet to take a view, express misgivings or even condemnation and articulate expectations.

 

That doesn't imply open slather for any yahoo with a modem, AK47 or both.

[Gibber]

Yeah, tidies things up a bit.

[MJ]

Do we need more one sided inaccurate youtube evidence? And disproportionate criticism of Israel (Israel is the root of all problems) is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Did you and I watch the same video?

[Gibber]

I would imagine we did. (??)

[Gibber]

And as well as inventing God and the theory of relativity Jews also invented punk

 

Iggy Pop

Joey and Tommy Ramone

Mick Jones

Lou Reed

Chris Stein

Sylvain Sylvain

[Gibber]

It must be hard to know what to think when several countries that don't come in for criticism on here are in concordance with the only country that comes in for any real criticism on here by being in favor of attacking another country that doesn't come in for criticism on here.

 

Confusing for some of you.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-saudis-iran

[Distortio]

I have to say, Gibber's arguments certainly hold weight against the gap toothed yokel narrow minded blinkered sheep bothering nonsense that the majority of this thread comprises of.

 

just my opinion as I see it.

[Distortio]

I have to say, Gibber's arguments certainly hold weight against the gap toothed yokel narrow minded blinkered sheep bothering nonsense that the majority of this thread comprises of.

 

just my opinion as I see it.

 

 

either gibber posted that when i was on the phone or there's some kind of jewish conspiracy afoot.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

lol

[Gibber]

either gibber posted that when i was on the phone or there's some kind of jewish conspiracy afoot.

 

You're confused, you had been drinking heavily remember, I think you may have an alcohol problem.

 

so lets see a genuine and strong criticism from you of some element of Gazan society. Or are you just not able?

 

I'll be doing the LOLLING until you can do that.

[Guest Anonymous]

a little food for thought as they say

 

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000; that is ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

 

Literature:

1988 - Najib Mahfooz

 

Peace:

1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat

1990 - Elias James Corey

1994 - Yaser Arafat:

1999 - Ahmed Zewai

 

Economics:

(zero)

 

Physics:

(zero)

 

Medicine:

1960 - Peter Brian Medawar

1998 - Ferid Mourad

 

TOTAL: 7 SEVEN

 

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000; that is FOURTEEN MILLION or about 0.02% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

 

Literature:

1910 - Paul Heyse

1927 - Henri Bergson

1958 - Boris Pasternak

1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon

1966 - Nelly Sachs

1976 - Saul Bellow

1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer

1981 - Elias Canetti

1987 - Joseph Brodsky

1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

 

Peace:

1911 - Alfred Fried

1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser

1968 - Rene Cassin

1973 - Henry Kissinger

1978 - Menachem Begin

1986 - Elie Wiesel

1994 - Shimon Peres

1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

 

Physics:

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer

1906 - Henri Moissan

1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson

1908 - Gabriel Lippmann

1910 - Otto Wallach

1915 - Richard Willstaetter

1918 - Fritz Haber

1921 - Albert Einstein

1922 - Niels Bohr

1925 - James Franck

1925 - Gustav Hertz

1943 - Gustav Stern

1943 - George Charles de Hevesy

1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi

1952 - Felix Bloch

1954 - Max Born

1958 - Igor Tamm

1959 - Emilio Segre

1960 - Donald A. Glaser

1961 - Robert Hofstadter

1961 - Melvin Calvin

1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau

1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz

1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman

1965 - Julian Schwinger

1969 - Murray Gell-Mann

1971 - Dennis Gabor

1972 - William Howard Stein

1973 - Brian David Josephson

1975 - Benjamin Mottleson

1976 - Burton Richter

1977 - Ilya Prigogine

1978 - Arno Allan Penzias

1978 - Peter L Kapitza

1979 - Stephen Weinberg

1979 - Sheldon Glashow

1979 - Herbert Charles Brown

1980 - Paul Berg

1980 - Walter Gilbert

1981 - Roald Hoffmann

1982 - Aaron Klug

1985 - Albert A. Hauptman

1985 - Jerome Karle

1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach

1988 - Robert Huber

1988 - Leon Lederman

1988 - Melvin Schwartz

1988 - Jack Steinberger

1989 - Sidney Altman

1990 - Jerome Friedman

1992 - Rudolph Marcus

1995 - Martin Perl

2000 - Alan J. Heeger

 

Economics:

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson

1971 - Simon Kuznets

1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow

1975 - Leonid Kantorovich

1976 - Milton Friedman

1978 - Herbert A. Simon

1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein

1985 - Franco Modigliani

1987 - Robert M. Solow

1990 - Harry Markowitz

1990 - Merton Miller

1992 - Gary Becker

1993 - Robert Fogel

 

Medicine:

1908 - Elie Metchnikoff

1908 - Paul Erlich

1914 - Robert Barany

1922 - Otto Meyerhof

1930 - Karl Landsteiner

1931 - Otto Warburg

1936 - Otto Loewi

1944 - Joseph Erlanger

1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser

1945 - Ernst Boris Chain

1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller

1950 - Tadeus Reichstein

1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman

1953 - Hans Krebs

1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann

1958 - Joshua Lederberg

1959 - Arthur Kornberg

1964 - Konrad Bloch

1965 - Francois Jacob

1965 - Andre Lwoff

1967 - George Wald

1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg

1969 - Salvador Luria

1970 - Julius Axelrod

1970 - Sir Bernard Katz

1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman

1975 - Howard Martin Temin

1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg

1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow

1978 - Daniel Nathans

1980 - Baruj Benacerraf

1984 - Cesar Milstein

1985 - Michael Stuart Brown

1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein

1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]

1988 - Gertrude Elion

1989 - Harold Varmus

1991 - Erwin Neher

1991 - Bert Sakmann

1993 - Richard J. Roberts

1993 - Phillip Sharp

1994 - Alfred Gilman

1995 - Edward B. Lewis

1996- Lu RoseIacovino

TOTAL: 129!

 

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel 's part, the following two sentences really say it all:

 

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel .." Benjamin Netanyahu

 

General Eisenhower Warned Us It is a matter of history that when the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.

 

He did this because he said in words to this effect:

 

'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the road of history some bar steward will get up and say that this never happened'

[shetlandpeat]

More demographics would be needed to explain why these so called achievements would seem to favour one more than another, what are the figures for the Christian population as they too stem from the same beliefs as Judaism and Islam. All three came from the Abrahamic Belief, firstly Judaism, Christianity then Islam.

Muslims populate 11 major regions of the world yet Jews only 5.

Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism as well.

Both sections you highlighted are both hard workers in their communities and are both willing to share responsibilities with other within those communities.

Many of the Jews I have met were academics.

It would be interesting for you to break down these figures to regions. You may find that many come from the USA, one of the areas more populated with a higher concentration of Jews.

I wonder how many of the 14 - 18 million live in USA?

[EM]

... these so called achievements...

So called? I think that receiving a Nobel Prize (even for peace, where many have been well dodgy) must surely be considered a real achievement.

[Gibber]

Go on K, this thread is entitled 'Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states' after all, lets see if you can overcome the cultural relativity you and the Guardian have been trained to unquestioningly obey. Or is that just too far to bend for even such a (self styled) free thinker like you?

 

so lets see a genuine and strong criticism from you of some element of Gazan society. Or are you just not able?

 

Didn't

 

think

 

so

[Fjool]

Ok. Firstly, topic is not about the holocaust; it is about Israel and the middle east. There is a more appropriate thread for Holocaust discussion over at: http://www.shetlink.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=128440

 

Please keep Holocaust discussion to there. There's a whole bunch of splitting and merging to do here now and I'm not sure there's enough time to do it justice right now. Don't be surprised if things move soon.

 

Secondly:

 

Shetlink's intent is to host Holocaust denial

This is clearly nonsense. Shetlink's intent is to provide an area where people can have their say on a number of topics; some mundane, some topical, some wacky. We aim to avoid the role of 'censor' where possible. Free speech is fine where it does not violate the Terms & Conditions. It is not our place to dictate which views may be held by members of Shetlink. Shetlink, both as an entity and as a group of individual volunteers, clearly does not endorse particular views or opinions.

 

If you don't agree with a view, you have two basic options: ignore or refute.