Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[Gibber]

 

Just seems to state my same point but tenfold.

 

Yes I believe this is the study referred to in the article you posted. My point being I won't take a report from an anti Israel web site about a study as credible but I would be interested in the study itself. Which I found.

 

I didn't post the link to it to try and refute what you said (the quickest of glances shows this study runs counter to my position), but so we can both read it. Which I have to say I haven't done yet.

 

But since you have, there's a counter point from Shlomo Sharan after this comment he made about Daniel Bar-Tal.

 

"My former colleague at Tel Aviv U School of Education does not read Arabic. Hence, none of his works ever examined any Arab language textbooks. Nor did he ever compare Israel textbooks to those of any other country at war and with the representations of the enemy. Has Israel done anything different that is found in other countries? That question is never even asked! Nor does he ever ask what is happening in the world to provoke such images, or is it just some inherent prejudice Jews have against Arabs?

 

Bar Tal has made a career out of condemning Israel's textbooks, young children's drawings of Arabs, etc.

 

As a good Polish Communist who remained a communist long after it had disappeared from Eastern Europe, he derives great benefits from condemning his adopted country."

 

Shlomo Sharan

 

And his counter-point which has a bit at the end specifically about Israel's educational policy. (I haven't read this one in detail yet either)

 

http://www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/article.php?voir%5B%5D=697&voir%5B%5D=6612

 

 

Not a very Arab name.

 

Tel Aviv University still in israel isn't it.

 

Your right on both points. Fortunately Israel permits criticism of itself by Jews (if indeed this Cohen is Jewish) and from within its own universities.

 

I will read both of these by some point tomorrow.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[Gibber]

 

I wasn't drawing lines of support in the sand or measuring out how much guilt amounts each side carrys but mearly supplying enough evidence to show that the first statement is plainly true and accurate, despite the links origins.

 

No we are talking about '[how] much hatred [is] fed to childrens minds on every side' so we will have to see 'how much guilt each side carrys'.

 

I don't think you have supplied enough evidence to prove that Israel teaches 'much hatred'.

 

And wasn't it evidence I supplied?

 

This is From Israel's Foreign affairs site on the history of Israeli education. It aknowledges the difficulties of mixed ethnicities in education within the context of the conflict and how arab education has developed within Israel. Hardly an educational culture of hate is it?

 

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern%20History/Israel%20at%2050/Fifty%20Years%20of%20Education%20in%20the%20State%20of%20Israel

 

Arab Education

During the Mandate period, the educational system for Arabs in Palestine was based both on government-run schools and on private institutions. By the end of the Mandate close to 150,000 Arab students were enrolled in schools all over Palestine, most of them in elementary schools. About two-thirds of the Arab pupils attended government-run schools, and one-third attended private institutions (run by various religious and public associations).

 

Officially, elementary school lasted seven years, and high school another four years. In practice, elementary school usually lasted only five or six years. Elementary education was standard for Arab boys, at least for a few years. Education for girls, especially in the villages, was less common. In all, only about 30 percent of Arab children of the relevant age groups attended school in 1948.

 

On the eve of Israeli independence, there were only ten Arab high schools (including two for girls). There were three teacher-training seminaries and not a single Arab institution of higher education.

 

After the War of Independence Israel began to rehabilitate Arab education, and to build it almost anew. In 1949, the government adopted two resolutions: First, it decided that Arab education would be completely parallel to Jewish education, and the Free Compulsory Education Law would apply to Jewish and Arab children alike. Second, it resolved - after extensive deliberations - to let Arabs be taught in their own language in the official State schools, a principle, it should be noted, that is not accepted by many democratic countries, including the United States, with regard to their minorities.

 

The duration of study in Arab elementary schools became equal to that in Jewish schools (eight years); and in many places separation between boys and girls was eliminated; Arab schools were required to teach subjects not taught previously, e.g., physical education, science, art and music; new rules of discipline were established and corporal punishment, which had been common in Arab schools, was abolished; and the Arab custom that forbade married Arab women to work as teachers was rescinded.

 

By the end of 1949, there were only sixty-nine Arab schools in Israel, and they employed about 250 Arab teachers. For fear that some of the Arab teachers were hostile to the State of Israel, the Ministry of Education and Culture hired new teachers and principals, some of them Jews, for some Arab schools.

 

In 1956 a distinction was made between Arab and Druze schools. With the consent of their leaders, it was decided to draft all eligible Druze men for compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces, and since then the Druze have received governmental preference in various matters, including education. In cooperation with representatives of the Druze community, ways were sought to strengthen Druze consciousness in their schools.

 

The natural increase among Israeli Arabs has been one of the highest in the world. As a result, and also due to family reunification and limited immigration by Arabs from Arab countries, the Arab population in Israel has increased almost eightfold in the past 50 years. The Arab population numbers nearly 1,200,000 in the fiftieth year of the State. Of these, some 850,000 are Muslims, about 180,000 are Christians, and nearly 100,000 are Druze.

 

The growth of the Arab population has led to the rapid expansion of Arab education. At the end of the first decade there were about 150 Arab schools in Israel (including 15 post-primary schools); at the end of the second decade there were 250 schools (including 30 post-primary schools); at the end of the third decade there were 370 schools (including 60 post-primary schools); at the end of the fourth decade there were 420 schools (including 90 post-primary schools); and in the fiftieth year there were 550 Arab schools (including 156 post-primary schools).

 

The desire to graduate from high school, earn a matriculation certificate, and gain admission into post-secondary educational institutions and universities has become more and more standard among Israeli Arabs in the last generation.

 

What are the main problems facing Arab education in Israel?

The first problem is that of Arab identity in a Jewish and democratic state. At least some of the Arab teachers and students have difficulty digesting the principles of the Declaration of Independence. On the one hand, the government has made no clear decision, and has no clear intention, regarding the objectives of Arab education. On the other hand, even when there are objectives, these are not acceptable to all Israeli Arabs, to a large extent due to the overall non-recognition of the State of Israel by most Arab countries.

 

Second, a critical issue in Arab education is the level and quality of teaching. Many teachers, and especially principals, have been in the same jobs for decades. Many Arab university graduates have gone into teaching - because they had difficulty finding other work on a level that suited their education - and they have remained in the field for many years with the feeling that they have no job alternative. Moreover, they are connected to families, clans, and political systems, and these ties make any change in their status difficult. Both the Ministry of Education and Culture, which supervises the teacher training institutions, and the Arab local authorities, which are responsible for the staffing and functioning of the schools, have so far been unable to adapt the level of teaching in the Arab sector to the needs of a modern democratic society. The result is that the average quality of teaching in the Israeli Arab sector is lower than that in most Jewish schools.

 

Third, the resources allocated to Arab education are not keeping up with the growth in population. Arab schools - more than any other educational sector - suffer from a shortage of classrooms and substandard classrooms. Notably, Arab localities suffer from a severe shortage of preschools (especially for ages 3-4). There also exists a disparity between the Arab and Jewish educational systems: an example is in psychological-counseling services.

 

The fourth problem is the dropout rate from Arab schools, which far exceeds that in the Jewish schools. The percentage of Arab pupils who do not complete twelve years of schooling is several times that of Jewish pupils. The highest dropout rate is in the Bedouin sector; in 1996 only 20 percent of Bedouin youngsters completed twelve years of schooling.

 

The fifth problem is the level of achievement in matriculation exams and institutions of higher education. The number of Arab students eligible for matriculation certificates and the number of Arab university students are disproportionately low. Altogether, about 80 percent of Arab students do not earn matriculation certificates. Of those who do, only about one-fourth attend universities (the majority prefer colleges, particularly teachers' colleges).

 

In conclusion, achievements in Arab education in Israel, especially in the last thirty years, are impressive. Until the mid-1950s, a few dozen Arab students earned Israeli matriculation certificates. In the fiftieth year of the State, the number of Arab students eligible for matriculation certificates approaches 10,000 per year. In 1960, 53.4 percent of Israeli Arabs aged fifteen and above had up to four years of schooling only. In 1996, the figure was down to 13.5 percent. Also, in 1960 only 1.5 percent of Israeli Arabs of the above age group had more than thirteen years of education; in 1996 this figure was 15.3 percent.

 

and from this site

 

http://www.bicom.org.uk/publications/israeli_affairs/s/1988/israels-education-system-between-past-challenges-and-future-prospects/

 

The multifaceted pre-state educational system was replaced with a more unified system embodied in the State Education Law enacted in 1953. This law represents values and ideals that the Israeli education system hoped to give its students of all origins, Jews, Muslims and Christians. Contrary to critical voices sounded against the law, a close look reveals a humanist, tolerant and liberal text. The goals declared in the law included the will to “educate [students] for the love of manâ€; and “to promote respect for human rights, basic freedoms, democratic values, law abidance, respect for the culture and identity of the other, and to educate for peace and tolerance between people and nations.â€6

 

Israel has laws dating back decades to ensure the avoidance of teaching hate. Doesn't this make teaching 'much hatred' a little difficult? Or is the State Education Law there to cover up the curriculum of hate found hidden in Israel's educational system?

 

If you're going to teach hate to kids at an institutional level, you can't cover it up, especially in a democracy like Israel where freedom of speech and freedom of the press are deep rooted within society. The Bar Tal and Cohen articles do not prove 'much hatred' is taught to Israeli children.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[Gibber]

No we are not, "you are", all that was in my statement was that there is much hatred fed to the minds of children on all sides, to which your retort has been a flat denial, making you sound like a skinhead denying the haulocaust.

 

You are saying there is much hatred taught to children in Israel (as well as the Palestinian (and Arab world?) side(s).

 

This is not the case in Israel. If you want to teach ‘much hatred’ you do it in schools and the media (as is done in the Arab world).

 

There are laws governing how children are taught and what is shown on TV. If you incite hate through education or television you are breaking Israeli law. Perhaps you know of other ways in which children are taught to hate in Israel that you can use to substantiate your claim.

 

If you want to measure out guilt by weighing up every incident over the conflict and doing a tally, then we may be here some time.

 

This is just what I don't want to do which is why I'm concentrating on teaching hate at an institutional level (like in Palestinian schools and their media). You’re right, substantiating claims like ‘much hatred is fed to children on both sides’ by looking at every incident over the conflict is not going to work. Hence, looking at institutions such as the education system, the media and legislation. Institutions which can be studied, which have their aims expressed officially and have an accessible recorded history that can be looked at.

 

Although you do seem keen to show a single You Tube incident of 5 year olds throwing stones (only in Israel eh?) as if this somehow backs up your claim of hate being taught to the young. The Israeli you hear on the video is telling people to get the soldier to intervene to stop the kids. What a hate filled monster! Probably been taught to hate by Israeli society from an early age.

 

Not that I'd mentioned the education system itself, but here's the Human rights take on it anyway.

 

Well what are you mentioning in regards to teaching children to hate? What knowledge of other channels of teaching hate in Israel do you have?

 

The quote you then give has nothing to do with teaching hate in schools. Citing from a HR site that doesn't have anything about hate being taught in Israeli schools doesn't really go in your favour. Wouldn't this issue be very prominant?

 

Despite what your freinds in Israel say about their attiutdes to Arabs being all sweetness and roses, I fear this is not the whole picture.

 

I agree. Israel has its fair share of racist idiots just like there are in any other country. In Israel these people cannot demonize Arabs or Palestinians through the educational system or the media and they may even be breaking the law if they do it their own homes.

 

When did I say my friend thinks Israeli attitudes are all 'sweetness and roses' towards the Arabs? I mentioned my friend because he is a teacher in Israel and because he will know a lot more about what we are talking about than I do, and ……(you may want to sit down for this revelation KOYAANISQATSI).....you.

 

If you don't think you can hack discussing this issue with someone from Israel who works as an educator then just say so. Don't try to discredit him as living in some Utopian delusion where in his mind there are no tensions between Israelis and Arabs by inventing statements like;

 

'Despite what your freinds in Israel say about their attiutdes to Arabs being all sweetness and roses,'

 

Nobody I know in Israel would say anything like this, and do you know what? neither would I.

[Pleepsie]

The Isrealies and Arabs have always beaten each other over the heads with sticks. Nothing is ever going to change. Let them get on with it, after all what else is there to do in a hot ,sand riddled place, with no decent cinema or shopping? and female oppresion to boot.

[Gibber]

The Isrealies and Arabs have always beaten each other over the heads with sticks. Nothing is ever going to change. Let them get on with it, after all what else is there to do in a hot ,sand riddled place, with no decent cinema or shopping? and female oppresion to boot.

 

er....?

[Styles]

I allways like thinking big, and going for big decisions, why not just wipe out one side and let the other have the rest. Plus divy up with the bordering countries. No people, no problem. Done. Even if folk arent happy if everyones dead, its not like any where can recover, they will have to put up with it.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[Gibber]

I allways like thinking big, and going for big decisions, why not just wipe out one side and let the other have the rest. Plus divy up with the bordering countries. No people, no problem. Done. Even if folk arent happy if everyones dead, its not like any where can recover, they will have to put up with it.

 

Um.....?