Israel vs. Middle Eastern Arab states

[Gibber]

I allways like thinking big, and going for big decisions, why not just wipe out one side and let the other have the rest. Plus divy up with the bordering countries. No people, no problem. Done. Even if folk arent happy if everyones dead, its not like any where can recover, they will have to put up with it.

 

Um.....?

[Gibber]

The most direct line of hate to be fed to kids would be through the parents, if you dont believe such things would ever happen in a nice jew house then you are being naive in the extreme. what ever way you look at it my point remains valid.

 

I do believe such things would, and do happen. I have already said Israel has its share of racist idiots just like any other country. I would like you to substantiate this claim that a significant amount of hate is being fed to Israeli children from their parents. I imagine citing one of the many sociological studies about Israeli society you have read coupled with your personal experience of living in Israel complimented by your distinguished academic background would be fitting as justification of large amounts of hate being fed to children through their parents….

 

…,or just dig around on You Tube for five minutes. ....again.

 

Blah blah blah, more stones of mutual respect being thrown by jewish kids as testamony to the love that's been placed in their hearts, and of course nothing to do with any kind of hatred being fed to them.

 

If you want to measure out guilt by weighing up every incident over the conflict and doing a tally, then we may be here some time.

 

You again contradict yourself with your obsessive use of You Tube videos to show individual events which you think support your argument. We are indeed going to be here a long time if you are going to try to post enough You Tube video to justify a significant amount of hate within Israeli society being taught by parents. And //sigh// this video doesn’t prove that they are throwing stones because their parents are teaching them to hate any more than you putting…

 

and of course nothing to do with any kind of hatred being fed to them.

 

…at the end of your post does.

 

Anyway

 

I like to think that I’ve maintained an even tone over the course of the posts dealing with this issue and I have been open to having my opinions changed.

 

I’ve posted a link to a study which runs in your favour after you posted a report about it (the study) from a plainly anti-Israel web site.

 

I’ve offered to include someone else in the discussion who has a significant amount of knowledge in this area (and who; by the way, may even have backed up your position. I have never spoken to my Israeli friend about the teaching of hate in Israel, for all I know he too may believe there is a significant amount of hatred being fed to Israeli children.)

 

You’ve had every opportunity to justify your premise yet you are reduced to linking to You Tube videos of people throwing stones in direct contradiction to your stated aim of not dwelling on every single little incident.

 

You’ve blatantly made up! this little gem to try to put my side of the argument into an untenable position. I and nobody I know have said or (unfortunately) are ever likely to say this…

 

‘Despite what your freinds in Israel say about their attiutdes to Arabs being all sweetness and roses, ….’

 

You’ve equated me with

 

a skinhead denying the haulocaust. (sic)

 

Did you think that I’m Jewish because I obviously have ties with Israel? Did you think that I might be a second or third generation Holocaust survivor and this would be upsetting? Did you think that there is a small chance that this person has lost family in the Holocaust and equating him with someone who denies the Holocaust took place will be especially cutting? It is offensive; but I won’t call for a mod edit, you using this phrase within the context of our discussion speaks for itself I think and doesn’t reflect well against your character.

 

As a side issue to this, if I’m like a Holocaust denier for disagreeing with your premise, by extension do you equate the veracity of your premise about hate being taught to children in Israel with the veracity of the Holocaust having taken place?

 

Isn’t this a bit arrogant to take such a position of undeniability? I find that losing an argument often leads to learning something new. Coming from a position of arrogance like you seem to be doing pretty much precludes learning from any other point of view.

 

Perhaps you can’t deal with the feeling of being wrong about something. No one likes that feeling but everybody has to deal with it at some point.

 

Your use of the phrase...

 

in a nice jew house

 

... is also a bit disappointing. Do the Greenwalds still live in Shetland? Do you refer to where they live as ‘the Jew house’? Do you teach your children to refer to it as the Jew house? Do you teach your children to refer to the Greenwalds as those Jews? Perhaps we should be looking at hate taught in Shetland by parents? Perhaps you could put a video of yourself doing this on You Tube

 

(I'm joking of course.....I don't actually know if you live in Shetland )

 

If you want to continue this with some kind of relevant debate about significant amounts of hate being taught to Israeli children (by their parents or by whoever) then fine (I suppose).

 

If you want to create a You Tube montage entitled ‘A History of Jew Stone Throwing in the Middle East’ then crack on. I’ll leave you to it.

 

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[devka]

Gibber, honest person, leave them all alone. Your sense of justice is way, way beyond that of your opponents. They may challenge you polemically, but not ethically.

 

If we were born perfect, few of life's travails would afflict us, and surely the quarrels of a tiny number of rich piests should be left to decorate the annals of the marketable past.

 

But you are.

 

Me too.

 

Go for it. My grandchildren depend on a malleable futire. You go do it.

[Gibber]

If you already believe that what I say is happening, then you didn't have an argument in the first place.

 

You seem to be confusing disagreeing with what you say, with agreeing with what you say. er...an easy mistake to make I'm sure.

 

Yes there is much hatred fed to children’s minds on every side I'm sure,

 

I don’t believe that a large significant amount of hate is being fed to Israeli children. In other words, I think your premise is false.

 

Where in this statement do I say that there are never cases where Israeli children are taught that Arabs and Palestinians are an enemy?

 

There is a large amount of hatred fed to children at an institutional level in the Arab world. This is what I would call a large amount, or ‘much hatred’ to use the words from your original premise.

 

Please substantiate the significant amount of hatred taught to Israeli children you claim is present.

 

If you can't, then I think we are pretty much finished with this.

[Gibber]

 

Go for it. My grandchildren depend on a malleable futire. You go do it.

 

yes, yes I WILL!

 

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[KOYAANISQATSI]

Or was it the peoples front of Judia ?

[Gibber]

 

I hadn't mentioned the institutional level of anything in my original statement but more from the basic human nature side of things, in which the passing on of hatred is inevitable

 

No this is also plainly untrue. It is not inevitable, how can you substantiate this now?

 

Inevitable in a society that teaches hate on an institutional level then...perhaps...but even then I would like to think not; (there are many wonderful peace initiatives in the occupied territories despite the hatred dished out in the media and schools).

 

Not inevitable in Israeli society, that; as we have mentioned, has long established laws and principles that govern against the incitement of hate. Israeli society is 20% arab and 80% Jewish yet it is not defined and dominated by continual race riots.

 

...figures for what every parent will be telling there kids behind closed doors are not generally published as it would be near impossible to quantify.

 

Thats right, but you said that 'much hatred' is fed to children so the sociological methods that are used to study societies apply when looking for your claimed inevitable large scale hatred and its transmission from generation to generation.

 

These methods can interpret the products of large scale attitudes of populations by identifying cultural directions, societal norms, national identity etc. We don't need to (and as you say pretty much can't) quantify what goes on in everybody's home but we can take a sociological perspective to reveal large scale trends of hatred. If parents on a large scale are teaching their children to hate there would be evidence throughout Israeli society.

 

Remember, the children of today are the lawmakers and politicians of tomorrow. Where are the laws and political manifestos expressing the hatred taught by the previous generation?

 

Essentially; where is the sociological evidence that shows

 

1 Hate was present; in the first instance, in the previous generations on a large scale.

 

2 This hatred is inevitably passed on to the next generation by parents to their children on a large scale.

 

Now we're done?

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[Gibber]

Very good.

 

We finally agree that;

 

there is a significant amount of hate taught to Arab children in the Arab world. This is not the case for Israeli children in Israel.

[KOYAANISQATSI]

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[Gibber]

Please, do continue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

bye

 

[DeMascus]

There is a significant amount of hate taught to Arab children in the Arab world. This is not the case for Israeli children in Israel.

 

I really don't see how you can substantiate that statement. is there a study done comparing Israeli textbooks with ones from Arab countries?

 

You also mentioned that 20% of the population of Israel of of Arab origin. 1 in 4 school children in Israel is of Arab origin there is actually two schooling systems in Israel one for the Arab population and one for Jewish.

 

Here is a HRW report, published in 2001:

SECOND CLASS - Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools