redrobbie Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 This is exactly one of the arguments against licencing air guns in Scotland the cost is going to be huge easily 100 million pounds and it could be a lot more if they are forced to pay compensation to the owners who are caught out by the retrospective catch 22 nature of the proposed legislation and are forced to hand over their previously legally held private property to the authorities.Now at present the SNP say they will receive no compensation whatsoever this goes against the European court of human rights law of right of property which says no citizen shall be deprived of his personal property by a government without due compensation.I think that this stems back to from when the Nazis passed laws and confiscated the private property of anyone they didn't like the look of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shetlandpeat Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 The real point is could there then be a change to obtaining a air weapon different to a firearm. As pointed out in previous posts, many of these air weapons will have just one owner, thus reducing the costs. I am not sure where you get £100 million, when, if you do the sums to the exact figure, it will be less than 90, however, 100 million sounds better and has 3 numbers in it. I am not so sure about your Nazi comparison... Nazism, or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and state as well as other related far-right groups. Usually characterised as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism originally developed from the influences of pan-Germanism, the Völkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture in post-First World War Germanyfrom Wiki I my self cannot see the comparison, you may have been better to make the link with a dictatorship, though many of them kill their opponents. It will be air weapon owners who will have the choice, get the paperwork or lose the weapon. After all, it is not like they do not know it may be on its way. So, a system to register ownership of such weapons may be favorable, I would support that, especially as it will significantly reduce the costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrobbie Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 The SNP bill. http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Bills/Air%20Weapons%20and%20Licensing%20%28Scotland%29%20Bill/b49s4-introd.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I am not so sure about your Nazi comparison... How about the 1938 German Weapons Act ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I am not so sure about your Nazi comparison... How about the 1938 German Weapons Act ? Sorry, I was to quick on the 'trigger' A little bit off-topic but, meant to quote all the German legislation from 1919 - 1938. Anyway, would the Nazi's have got away with slaughtering over 21 million people without this legislation? You might also ask the same questions of Stalin. PS we are on a very similar path. redrobbie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 a little extreme there. were the owners of hand guns/multiload shot guns and assault weapons paid there value. this will be strange imagine a guy hunting legally in england accidentally crosses the boarder does that then make him a criminal. unless its a uk wide law then it has the potential to make lawful use a crime by just walking a few feet. there are 213000 registered fire arms in scotland and say 500000 air weapons. its a wonder that there is so little crime. however below is the image of the reason for the new law.http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74865000/jpg/_74865421_andrewmortonpa.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shetlandpeat Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I think that has been addressed. The trouble is, these folk who are to be chastised for doing what they think is best have been put there by the ordinary citizens of Scotland, as with any democracy, that can appear very slim. I feel that this law will be made, we are in a place where total opposition may be fruitles and will have to go with what is the best we can get. Registration may be the compromise as it would not need the full involvement of the dwindling Police Force, the fee could be added to new sales and a good time for those to register themselves as owners, say 2 years. That I believe will give plenty of time. It is now up to you Robbie, as a voter to petition your MSP. As we all know, he is the only one that can represent you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandma Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 a little extreme there. were the owners of hand guns/multiload shot guns and assault weapons paid there value. this will be strange imagine a guy hunting legally in england accidentally crosses the boarder does that then make him a criminal. unless its a uk wide law then it has the potential to make lawful use a crime by just walking a few feet. there are 213000 registered fire arms in scotland and say 500000 air weapons. its a wonder that there is so little crime. however below is the image of the reason for the new law.http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74865000/jpg/_74865421_andrewmortonpa.jpghttp://www.ssaa.org.au/research/2008/2008-06_evaluating-britains-handgun-ban.html Scorrie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorrie Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 ....... I do not need to obtain pieces of paper to......... let loose an arrow...... Only a matter of time, SP, only a matter of time. What baffles me is what they expect the current long-term airgun owners to do. The authorities have no way of tracking down any air weapons bought up to quite recently, (or even to today?). So, they will have to rely on airgun owners to be responsible and apply for the licence.At what category of owners will apply? The good, law abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of using the weapon maliciously. Whereas the cretins will keep quiet, keep the gun in the house and business as usual for them. In other words, we'll end up in the same situation as we a have with other weapons - honest people pay and get restricted whilst the criminals continue to use illegally held air/hand/shot guns. I've no problem with paying a reasonable fee for my air weapons, but, TBH, if I'm jumping through hoops then I might as well go the whole hog and upgrade to a Smith and Wesson AR15 and a .17HMR. redrobbie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrobbie Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 ....... I do not need to obtain pieces of paper to......... let loose an arrow...... Only a matter of time, SP, only a matter of time. What baffles me is what they expect the current long-term airgun owners to do. The authorities have no way of tracking down any air weapons bought up to quite recently, (or even to today?). So, they will have to rely on airgun owners to be responsible and apply for the licence.At what category of owners will apply? The good, law abiding citizens who wouldn't dream of using the weapon maliciously. Whereas the cretins will keep quiet, keep the gun in the house and business as usual for them. In other words, we'll end up in the same situation as we a have with other weapons - honest people pay and get restricted whilst the criminals continue to use illegally held air/hand/shot guns. I've no problem with paying a reasonable fee for my air weapons, but, TBH, if I'm jumping through hoops then I might as well go the whole hog and upgrade to a Smith and Wesson AR15 and a .17HMR. You make some good points.As far as i can see the application process for obtaining a air gun [not air weapon as they insist on calling them] will be almost the same as that for obtaining a firearms certificate.People are going to think if i have to go through all this rigmarole to get a low powered air gun i might as well go for a real gun.Is that what the the SNP want? .I also note they intend to send anyone in possession of a air gun without a certificate to jail for 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrobbie Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 The real point is could there then be a change to obtaining a air weapon different to a firearm. As pointed out in previous posts, many of these air weapons will have just one owner, thus reducing the costs. I am not sure where you get £100 million, when, if you do the sums to the exact figure, it will be less than 90, however, 100 million sounds better and has 3 numbers in it. I am not so sure about your Nazi comparison... Nazism, or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and state as well as other related far-right groups. Usually characterised as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism originally developed from the influences of pan-Germanism, the Völkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture in post-First World War Germanyfrom Wiki I my self cannot see the comparison, you may have been better to make the link with a dictatorship, though many of them kill their opponents. It will be air weapon owners who will have the choice, get the paperwork or lose the weapon. After all, it is not like they do not know it may be on its way. So, a system to register ownership of such weapons may be favorable, I would support that, especially as it will significantly reduce the costs.Regarding the cost after they changed the criteria for owning handguns in the UK the government played out about £89 million in compensation plus undisclosed millions in police time That was to deal with around 100,000 handguns.There are many more air guns in Scotland then that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrobbie Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) I think that has been addressed. The trouble is, these folk who are to be chastised for doing what they think is best have been put there by the ordinary citizens of Scotland, as with any democracy, that can appear very slim. I feel that this law will be made, we are in a place where total opposition may be fruitles and will have to go with what is the best we can get. Registration may be the compromise as it would not need the full involvement of the dwindling Police Force, the fee could be added to new sales and a good time for those to register themselves as owners, say 2 years. That I believe will give plenty of time. It is now up to you Robbie, as a voter to petition your MSP. As we all know, he is the only one that can represent you.The only party that has been supportive of shooting sports have been UKIP .All the rest want them ended one way or another no matter what they say in public. Edited May 17, 2014 by redrobbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) The only point I can see with registering an airgun is that, when they decide to make ownership completely illegal (and they WILL if they can get away with it), is so that they will know who's door to smash in at 5 in the morning.... It is pretty obvious that most of the public are opposed to any kind of ban but, the politicians refuse to back down.. It seems to be their 'thing'. It's going to be interesting when they start to 'spin' the civil disobedience this will generate. I don't care how many emotive/photoshopped photos are out there, or how many screaming campaigners shouting that "guns are scawy" and,"they should be banned" . Get a grip, there are almost 70 million of us in the UK. There must be a few nutters amongst that lot who would, almost certainly, find other ways of doing harm if they didn't have a relatively harmless airgun to use. Shoot me with an airgun and you would have to be an incredibly good or very lucky shot because, despite a little pain and a bit of bleeding,I would be coming after you and, I would hurt you a damned site more..... In case anyone is remotely interested, I have been shot with an air rifle and, I didn't enjoy it one bit. It was painful and there was some bleeding. It also required a surgeon to get the pellet out and anti tetanus injections but, I was still able to get even.... That guy hasn't shot anyone since... Bottom line.. The 'bad guys' will always manage to arm themselves and the 'good guys' will just be cannon fodder... Oh, and please stop bleating about the cost. Politicians and police have decided to impose rules. Do they think these things come free or, do they think that if no one has a gun, there would be no cost? Edited May 17, 2014 by Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionajohn Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 are we going to see boarder control with vehicle searches when coming from england this is an ill thought out piece of legistaion by a man desperate to hold on to power and will backfire on him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorrie Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 a little extreme there. were the owners of hand guns/multiload shot guns and assault weapons paid there value. this will be strange imagine a guy hunting legally in england accidentally crosses the boarder does that then make him a criminal. unless its a uk wide law then it has the potential to make lawful use a crime by just walking a few feet. there are 213000 registered fire arms in scotland and say 500000 air weapons. its a wonder that there is so little crime. however below is the image of the reason for the new law.http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74865000/jpg/_74865421_andrewmortonpa.jpghttp://www.ssaa.org.au/research/2008/2008-06_evaluating-britains-handgun-ban.html Thanks for that, Grandma. As I've suspected for a very, very, long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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