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I wouldn't crash, as I'd be driving defensively and travelling at a speed (and distance) that allowed me plan ahead and make allowances for other drivers lack of consideration.......

 

:wink:

 

Is this another way of saying that you'd be doing what the rest of us do ... if the car in front red blobby lights suddenly went tits up vertical after veering to the left from the normal horizontal position, you'd realise s/he hadn't been following the road after all and took 'evasive' action so as not to end up in the ditch also? :wink:

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USE OF FOG LIGHTS

 

 

 

Rule 133 of the current Highway Code states: - 'Use fog lights when visibility is seriously reduced’

 

This generally means when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 ft). You MUST NOT use fog lights at other times'. Remember to switch them off when visibility improves.

 

So relating figures to actual distances is not only very important regarding stopping distances, it is very relevant to the above rule.

 

It can be very irritating when rear fog lights are left on in good visibility. Naturally they are quite bright and it is not so obvious when the driver is braking. I think some people do genuinely forget to switch them off, (where has their concentration gone?) I think some people put them on as they probably feel more secure and others may feel it keeps tailgaters at bay.

 

No doubt there are many more reasons why people leave fog lights on; but they may not be aware they are breaking the law. This could lead to them being pulled up by the police and who knows what that could lead to.

 

Like I have said, leaving fog lights on is irritating; used correctly, they are an invaluable asset.

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I wouldn't crash, as I'd be driving defensively and travelling at a speed (and distance) that allowed me plan ahead and make allowances for other drivers lack of consideration.......

 

:wink:

 

Is this another way of saying that you'd be doing what the rest of us do ... if the car in front red blobby lights suddenly went tits up vertical after veering to the left from the normal horizontal position, you'd realise s/he hadn't been following the road after all and took 'evasive' action so as not to end up in the ditch also? :wink:

 

That'll be it 8)

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Seaflech, apologies for the clumsy quotes here - I haven't yet mastered the multi quote thingy - so I've put your OP in italics

 

Uh, hang on, think I've got it sussed!

 

 

 

If you are in fog and the car behind you is driving so close that you can see not only his lights but the vehicle itself then they are driving dangerously close to you (assuming an open stretch of road, not urban.) If they are being dazzled by my fog light then they should back off to a safe distance, thus giving a far greater reaction time and less chance of rear-ending the lead car.

 

Two points: 1:Fog lights need to be on in viz below 100m - so the car behind you could be easily visible from, say, 60 - 80m back - but you should legally have your foglights on....... At 50mph the car behind would need 53m to stop in good conditions, so they would be far enough back to stop safely even in fog, yet a few moments lack of realisation that the car in front is braking (and having brakelights masked by foglights) could reduce the safe margin by a large chunk. A tad pedantic, but I hope you get my drift - it's the 'use common sense' bit that counts for most.

 

2: What the driver behind you should do and what they will do are potentially two totally different things. Never assume the cars around you will do the right thing and certainly don't forget that their opinion of what constitutes a safe following distance may somewhat at odds with yours!

 

...but at the same time if you switch off your rear fog light and aren't braking, he is going to lose sight of you as he sure as hell isn't going to see your tail lights if it is foggy. He has gone from having a positive visual reference to the car in front of him to losing sight of it, but knowing it is still very close - but no idea of knowing how close. This is far more dangerous.

 

 

This is the crux of my posting, you've missed the point: if you can see the car behind clearly in the fog, then they can definitely see you clearly. Foglights off - unless conditions are constantly changing (ref your quote from the AA about constantly switching on and off...it's that 'use common sense' thing again)

 

 

There is only ever one rear fog light on a vehicle,....

 

Ahem...... :wink: BTW, there's plenty of cars that have the foglights in the same cluster as the brakelights.

 

I agree about people hanging on to the vehicle in front in heavy fog, and here lies the root of the problem. Why does somebody have to drive so close to the car in front at all times, whatever the weather? I would personally rather drive in fog with no car in front of me......

 

Good, innit? In adverse weather, it's a 'comfort' thing. Some drivers believe that if they can hang onto you, then all they have to is mimic you actions to stay safe. Either a driver with little self confidence or an idiot who cannot be bothered to plan ahead.

A surefire way to prove it is to pull over, let them past and then watch their speed drop right off as they suddenly have to start making decisions. Driving in snow is another good example of when this happens...had a couple last winter who suddenly decided they didn't want to drive fast any more after I'd pulled into passing places to let them by because they were pishing me off by hanging off my muckle sphincter :roll:

 

 

In either case, again if the car following close behind you is being dazzled by your fog light (and it is actually foggy) then again he is driving far too close and should back off so that he is a)not being dazzled and B) has a fighting chance of stopping in time should the lead car stop suddenly.

 

See my earlier point about what other drivers should do...... :wink:

 

(two second rule)..... and what exactly do you do to it in fog?! Treble it? times it by ten? I don't think the Two Second Rule really applies in fog, does it? I would be very worried if the driver behind me was relying on that in reduced visiblity.

 

The two second rule works at any speed and in conditions of reduced visibility (providing you can identify a marker to do it, that is). If you can't judge the distance because it really is a pea souper then that old 'common sense' quote applies again....

 

Quote:

Could you tell me the correct distance for heavy traffic speeding up and slowing down between 5 and 20mph? There isn't one on the HC.....

 

Of course I can't, it's an impossible figure to compute.

 

That's my point. Trying to compute an arbitrary figure to cover a real life traffic situation is nigh on impossible, That's why I was saying stopping distance figures are almost an irrelevance. Generally speaking, the two second rule is your friend in traffic.

 

......

Out of interest, (and I know this doesn't apply to Shetland (yet!)) how do you manage your fog lights if driving on a dual carriageway? If you see a car behind you but in the next lane do you switch your fog light off? What happens if a car comes up behind you in the lane you are in after this, do you switch it back on again? Oh no you can't, there's a car in the next lane behind you, but he's seen you and the car behind you hasn't, so maybe it should be switched back on? Oh wait, no that will dazzle the other driver so I'll just......BANG!!!! Car crash.....

 

No different.

No.

And stop it, you're being silly.

 

:P

 

Beep beeeeeep.

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OK, lets clear a few things up:

 

In fog, you have no control over the actions of the driver behind, therefore it's in your interest to help them out as much as possible. If you can see the vehicle behind you NOT just the lights - then they can see you - so no need for the Christmas decorations to be in full swing.

If you leave your rear fogs on, there is a very real chance that the driver behind may not see your brake lights coming on, bear in mind that some drivers don't pay attention at the best of times.....

 

:)

Let's just say you're out driving in the fog and you're following a car with its rear fog lights on, suddenly there's a big crash and you've just run up the ass of the aforementioned car. The usual formalitys take place and the police turn up as you'd expect, how do you think the nice police officer will react when they hear you blame the crash on the fact that you couldn't tell the difference between the cars break lights and its fog lights, and how you feel that the car in front should have switched off its fogs to make it easier for you to differentiate between the 2 sets of lights.

 

I wouldn't crash, as I'd be driving defensively and travelling at a speed (and distance) that allowed me plan ahead and make allowances for other drivers lack of consideration.......

 

:wink:

 

All I can suggest is that you go to any area that has heavy traffic on the road and then drive in fog and rain - preferably in a multi-lane situation at night. You might then rethink your comment about being 'unable to tell the difference'. Especially after driving, say, for a 100 miles in those conditions.

 

You may not have a crash under those circumstances but the question still stands, what do you think a police officer would say to anyone who had an accident in foggy conditions, then proceeded to blame it on the car in front having its fog lights on, claiming it made it hard for them to distinguish between the fog and brake lights.

 

I may not have any experience of motorway driving in those conditions but I have driven every road in Shetland in the worst fog Shetland has to offer and I can guarantee you that I've nerver had any problem distinguish brake lights from fog lights even in cars where they share the same light cluster.

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......

 

I may not have any experience of motorway driving in those conditions but I have driven every road in Shetland in the worst fog Shetland has to offer and I can guarantee you that I've nerver had any problem distinguish brake lights from fog lights even in cars where they share the same light cluster.

 

By your own admission, you have never driven in heavy, multi lane traffic in fog.

 

When you're faced with a couple of hundred sets of tail/brake lights in front of you for hours on end, then believe me, you'll soon get fed up with those whose glaring fogs make life harder.

 

eg:

 

Night, just clear of fog and raining.

Three solid lanes of traffic moving at 70mph.

Cars to left and right of you.

You've eased off the gas to regain your two second gap as the traffic up ahead bunches up.

A quick look in your rear mirror to check behind on the car that's a bit on the close side, look forward again and there's a moments indecision whilst your brain works out if that car that's just dived into the gap in between you and the car in front is braking hard to avoid a collision or if it's their fog lights glaring at you.

 

Brake hard to avoid a collision or ignore?

 

Make the wrong call on a motorway or dual and it could be your last one....

 

 

It's a bit different from having just one or two sets of lights in front of you to worry about.........

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......

 

I may not have any experience of motorway driving in those conditions but I have driven every road in Shetland in the worst fog Shetland has to offer and I can guarantee you that I've nerver had any problem distinguish brake lights from fog lights even in cars where they share the same light cluster.

 

By your own admission, you have never driven in heavy, multi lane traffic in fog.

 

When you're faced with a couple of hundred sets of tail/brake lights in front of you for hours on end, then believe me, you'll soon get fed up with those whose glaring fogs make life harder.

 

eg:

 

Night, just clear of fog and raining.

Three solid lanes of traffic moving at 70mph.

Cars to left and right of you.

You've eased off the gas to regain your two second gap as the traffic up ahead bunches up.

A quick look in your rear mirror to check behind on the car that's a bit on the close side, look forward again and there's a moments indecision whilst your brain works out if that car that's just dived into the gap in between you and the car in front is braking hard to avoid a collision or if it's their fog lights glaring at you.

 

Brake hard to avoid a collision or ignore?

 

Make the wrong call on a motorway or dual and it could be your last one....

 

 

It's a bit different from having just one or two sets of lights in front of you to worry about.........

I may not have driven on a motorway but if I did I would attempt to ensure I was driving in a manner that I wouldn't need to rely on a split second decision to avoid a accident, reading the road ahead well enough can usually help avoid those types of situation.

If it would be possible for you to forget about your motorway obsession for a minute, what do you think are the chances of you answering my question from before?

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.....

If it would be possible for you to forget about your motorway obsession for a minute, what do you think are the chances of you answering my question from before?

 

Presumably you mean this one?:

 

Let's just say you're out driving in the fog and you're following a car with its rear fog lights on, suddenly there's a big crash and you've just run up the ass of the aforementioned car. The usual formalitys take place and the police turn up as you'd expect, how do you think the nice police officer will react when they hear you blame the crash on the fact that you couldn't tell the difference between the cars break lights and its fog lights, and how you feel that the car in front should have switched off its fogs to make it easier for you to differentiate between the 2 sets of lights.

 

Overly simplistic example designed to bang your opinion home.

 

It would depend on the conditions at the time, what other factors led to the collision, speeds and distances involved.

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.....

If it would be possible for you to forget about your motorway obsession for a minute, what do you think are the chances of you answering my question from before?

 

Presumably you mean this one?:

 

Let's just say you're out driving in the fog and you're following a car with its rear fog lights on, suddenly there's a big crash and you've just run up the ass of the aforementioned car. The usual formalitys take place and the police turn up as you'd expect, how do you think the nice police officer will react when they hear you blame the crash on the fact that you couldn't tell the difference between the cars break lights and its fog lights, and how you feel that the car in front should have switched off its fogs to make it easier for you to differentiate between the 2 sets of lights.

 

Overly simplistic example designed to bang your opinion home.

 

It would depend on the conditions at the time, what other factors led to the collision, speeds and distances involved.

 

Or could it be that by answering my question you prove that your opinion on the use of fog lights is just that, your opinion.

In a situation where the lead car is obeying the rules of the road and is perfectly road worthy, if the lead car was rear ended by a following car in fog who will the police and/or insurance company's try to blame the accident on?

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....

 

I may not have driven on a motorway but if I did I would attempt to ensure I was driving in a manner that I wouldn't need to rely on a split second decision to avoid a accident, reading the road ahead well enough can usually help avoid those types of situation.

......

 

A fine answer and noble sentiments.

 

But if you read my scenario above, you'll see that you've already done all you can.

 

You're boxed in lest and right as those cars have moved alongside you, lost your safe area in front of you and the car behind you has gained on you.

 

Now it's decision time: Are you going to emergency stop?

 

It takes between 0.5 and 0.75 of a second for your to process information on simple decisions when driving. At 60mph you will have covered between about 40 and 50 feet in that time... add in another, say, 0.5 second to analyse the confusing information from the bright red lights and you can now easily be 60 to a 100 feet further down the road.

 

And you haven't even begun to brake yet. But the car in front in my little scenario could already be panic braking......

 

So, wouldn't you agree that having to deal with unnecessary confusion caused by inconsiderate use of foglights could potentially cause problems for other road users? especially in fast moving, busy road situations?

 

 

Of course, if you believe that all this is just waffle, then I'll happily bid you farewell.

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Or could it be that by answering my question you prove that your opinion on the use of fog lights is just that, your opinion.

..............

 

Possibly.

 

That would make it just the opinion of a DSA ADI who ran his own very successful driving school in Scotland for many years after working with BSM in the Midlands before that. Pass Plus, Post-test motorway lessons, Fleet training as well as the regular stuff.

 

(Edit)

It is also the opinion of the people who write "Roadcraft: The Police Drivers Handbook":

 

"The brightness of foglights can mask the brakelights" (Observation and Anticipation. Page 35)

 

And......

 

"Bear in mind foglights can mask you brakelights and dazzle drivers behind" (Bad Weather Conditions on Fast Moving Roads. Page 158).

 

But, you're free to think what you want.

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Or could it be that by answering my question you prove that your opinion on the use of fog lights is just that, your opinion.

..............

 

Possibly.

 

That would make it just the opinion of a DSA ADI who ran his own very successful driving school in Scotland for many years after working with BSM in the Midlands before that. Pass Plus, Post-test motorway lessons, Fleet training as well as the regular stuff.

 

(Edit)

It is also the opinion of the people who write "Roadcraft: The Police Drivers Handbook":

 

"The brightness of foglights can mask the brakelights" (Observation and Anticipation. Page 35)

 

And......

 

"Bear in mind foglights can mask you brakelights and dazzle drivers behind" (Bad Weather Conditions on Fast Moving Roads. Page 158).

 

But, you're free to think what you want.

 

The UK Gov web site and the highway code both state that the breaking distance from 60mph is 180ft, that's just breaking distance not including thinking time. A modern car like a Ford Focus will stop from 60mph in 110ft, sometimes even official documents, procedures and guidance can be based on outdated or even incorrect information.

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.......

 

The UK Gov web site and the highway code both state that the breaking distance from 60mph is 180ft, that's just breaking distance not including thinking time. A modern car like a Ford Focus will stop from 60mph in 110ft, sometimes even official documents, procedures and guidance can be based on outdated or even incorrect information.

 

If I had a quid for every time I've heard that, Clooty.....

 

The distances were set some time ago, agreed. But the figure has to be one that all drivers and cars can work with under normal road conditions. Quoting an individual cars' performance under fairly ideal conditions doesn't wash.

 

If you wind back through the thread, you'll notice that I've tried to avoid discussing stopping/braking distances as they are arbitrary figures that are of fairly limited use (could you pace out 240ft accurately?), plus it doesn't compute in traffic (which is what we are talking about). That's why I keep mentioning the 'two second rule' (or four in the wet). Much more useful in a traffic situation.

 

If you can't see sodall because it is so bad? Then ensure you can always stop in the distance you can see to be clear.....

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