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Military intervention in Syria  

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  1. 1. Should the UK take military action against the Syrian regime

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      36
    • Undecided
      9


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no Colin the "Dubin agreement" deals with the status of refugees in different parts of europe and the key resposibility is which country they made their caim and were finger printed. The Dubin Agreement has become a bit of a joke in recent year with British immigration courts unwilling to allow refugees to be returned to both Italy and Greece due to the conditions they are held in and the lack of national support which meant they were put on the detained fast track scheme in this counrty which itself has now been decared ilegal refugee status is tested by the situation in the persons own country unless they have status in another country then that status its self would be tested to see if it complied with UNCHR and the Human Rights Act

OK, I think I get it but, it doesn't get anywhere close to answering my point..

 

If a family applies for (and is granted) refugee status in Turkey then, for whatever reason, decide to head for any EU country that makes them "migrants" not refugees.  Unless, of course, anyone can demonstrate that being a refugee in a non-EU country automatically qualifies you as being a refugee in the EU.

 

Is this why the people landing in Italy (EU) from North Africa (non EU) are described as migrants and not as refugees..

 

I think the whole confusion is caused by the press Colin. I doubt any grant of refugee status has been made in Turkey. The Journey to Greece I think is made for European perceived protection. The onward trip to Germany is sighty confusing as is the reaction from the German people as they have been pretty anti immigrant after the Turkish situation it could be that there is already a large Syrian popuation there lets call it ex pat. The whole North Africa area is in a bit of a mess since the so caled Arab spring so they could be migrants or refugees its hard to say as so many people were displaced in Libya.

 

Saying al that Shengin prevents refugees travelling to the UK from other EU countries without a Visa which makes the situation even more compicated I knew I gave that job up for a reason

Edited by brian.smith
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^^^Turkey has maintained an emergency response and declared a temporary protection regime, ensuring non-refoulement (not sending refugees back to a war torn country.) and helped the people fleeing for their lives in huge refugee camps.

They have almost 2 million desperate people (half of them children) fleeing Syria, they haven't granted them all refugee status, they desperately need the international community to pull its weight and relieve the situation.

It's only a matter of time, if we do nothing, for the situation in Turkey to get to the stage where the refugees fleeing Syria will end up fleeing Turkey for similar reasons. Same thing happened throughout Africa in the 70s and 80s refugees going from persecution in one country to the same in another.

Europe have had Turkey (and other bordering countries) as a buffer zone for refugees, they've been commended by the UNHCR for the action they've taken, but they can't deal with it themselves.

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Believe whatever you want to..  Just don't cherry pick the bits that fit your vision..

Yes, thank you, I think I will form my own beliefs based on what I can observe to be true.

 

There are a couple of people who have posted on this thread who I believe are genuinely sympathetic to the plight of the Syrian and other poor people currently seeking safe refuge in Europe. The interesting thing is neither of those people have found it necessary to explicitly inform their audience that they have sympathy for these unfortunate people. It is apparent from the language they use in their posts that they have sympathy.  You on the other hand have found it necessary on two separate occasions to point out to everyone how much sympathy you are feeling, yet the language you choose to use does not convey a genuine feeling of sympathy. Quite the opposite infact. The context in which you use that type of language is irrelevant and your attempt to dismiss my examples of it as cherry picking is fallacy.

 

I see you are fond of emulating Mrs Thatcher. Mrs Thatcher also said "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you are not".  The same logic applies and further exposes your vehement  protestations of sympathy as insincere. 

 

People will draw their own conclusions as to why you found it easier to ignore my question rather than answer it and so demonstrate why the contrast between the language you have been using in this thread, and the Martin Niemoller speech you quote after every post, does not make you a hypocrite. 

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There is now a growing facebook page called Save Your Country (UK).

 

First post on their timeline

 

"Don't you find it sickening that all these liberals bleating on about how they'd happily share their house with homeless Muslim migrants from another continent will happily walk around their home towns and cities ignoring Brits who have lost everything and are living homeless on their own streets.

Goes to show the contempt these people have for natives and how they'd rather put migrants first. So much for being "do gooders."

 

Oh you can tell who is behind such a page as to assume that everyone trying to come into Europe is a muslim and even though they were in some way this is important as to whether we help them or not.

 

If right wing horse crap like this is allowed to breathe and gain momentum then very soon our biggest problem won't be accepting refugees from Syria it will be stopping poor buggars who've lived all their days here getting their windows panned in by halfwits going after anyone with a head dress.

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There is now a growing facebook page called Save Your Country (UK).

 

First post on their timeline

 

"Don't you find it sickening that all these liberals bleating on about how they'd happily share their house with homeless Muslim migrants from another continent will happily walk around their home towns and cities ignoring Brits who have lost everything and are living homeless on their own streets.

Goes to show the contempt these people have for natives and how they'd rather put migrants first. So much for being "do gooders."

 

Oh you can tell who is behind such a page as to assume that everyone trying to come into Europe is a muslim and even though they were in some way this is important as to whether we help them or not.

 

If right wing horse crap like this is allowed to breathe and gain momentum then very soon our biggest problem won't be accepting refugees from Syria it will be stopping poor buggars who've lived all their days here getting their windows panned in by halfwits going after anyone with a head dress.

 

 

Britain Furst/EDL/DickheadsUK - the usual bigoted morons.

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Hi,

 

Nobody minds helping genuine few in real desperate need from whatever country.

 

You can understand some people point of view when they are becoming a minority nation where they live  and very large groups that do not want to mix taking over areas making you feel uncomftable where you live.

 

Economic migrants are not same as worn torn refugees literally fleeing for their lives with little or no  clothes on their backs or food just grabbing their children and running.

 

On the news at 10pm there were pictures of "refugees" who were clean well dressed and with mobile phones stuck to their ears they didn't appear to been walking for 5days .

 

I am sure their are pockets people running literally running  for their lives and and appear a lot more desperate.

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Well once you've had to leave your homeland because folk are wanting to blow the living crap out of it I don't think it's that unreasonable to have some say where you might want to live after it. Keeping tens of thousands of people in a camp is unfair on the country hosting the camp as they can't absorb that many people in short order. It's not beyond the realms of sensibility that neighbouring countries should help carry the burden. However, the real solution is to stop these people wanting to leave their own country. Dropping the odd bomb every now and then hasn't worked that well so far so maybe it's time to take stronger measures.

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Some of the pics remind of scenes of Norwegian refugees arriving in Lerwick, many of them perished trying to cross the North Sea.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."  to quote Edmund Burke.

 

If we don't help these people now. God help us if we require help sometime in future.

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Worrying thing now is you have a mass of people with no background checks wandering through Europe we have no idea exactly who is amongst them. Many i'm sure purely innocent,  but how do you really know, you don't.

There will people in that mass walking for different reasons.

Lot of grey areas to this situation and no easy answers.

 

Situation in Calais is completely different these people have not come directly from war zone. However they also have no background checks. You can't just let any person into a country there has to be rules and checks for security and they have to enter legally.

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Well once you've had to leave your homeland because folk are wanting to blow the living crap out of it I don't think it's that unreasonable to have some say where you might want to live after it. Keeping tens of thousands of people in a camp is unfair on the country hosting the camp as they can't absorb that many people in short order. It's not beyond the realms of sensibility that neighbouring countries should help carry the burden. However, the real solution is to stop these people wanting to leave their own country. Dropping the odd bomb every now and then hasn't worked that well so far so maybe it's time to take stronger measures.

 

Are they though?  A large group of people buried that child in an area where they are apparently seeking refuge from, yet they went back there ... were there jet fighters above on the lookout for anyone about to blow them to bits?  If you are absolutely petrified of chemical warfare, absolutely petrified of being killed, do you (and not just you, but many more) go back to bury a child?  Or was that safety in numbers because I don't think safety in numbers applies against a chemical attack does it?  Many have left their loved ones and those who have died because they daren't go back to whence they came so one can only assume that their love for their child outweighed any fear they might have.

 

Just because people are saying close borders and don't take them in doesn't equate to not caring about them; after all, they are human beings.  But where the hell are the UN?  Is taking in practically the entire population of a country and letting them choose where they live really the answer?  Refugees I've met in the past were grateful for any shelter but many of these (if the media reports are to be believed) seem to think that they have an entitlement to wander through Europe and choose where they live - it don't work like that.  It does still apply that if you are a refugee and NOT an economic migrant that you claim it in the first EU country you land in - the Dublin Agreement hasn't been amended yet, has it?

 

Greece is struggling to process people with the necessary paperwork but even then, as soon as some of them get it, they are allegedly hotfooting it to other countries within the EU ... yet they wouldn't have the refugee status by doing so.

 

So out of the millions, there will be some with skills but all you have to do is look online at the history of the country, the type of jobs, the numbers of university, etc., to realise that there will not be millions of skilled workers.  It's interesting to see how Germany has assigned to various geographic regions, and it looks like the bulk of them are going to rural country areas - cheap labour?  If so, are those people also now being exploited?

 

The whole thing is a mess, much of it being the West's doing.  But we simply cannot agree to take in everyone; realistically we don't have the money, we don't have the infrastructure, and this is not the same as taking in refugees during WWII.

 

So what would happen if all the borders were closed?  Could the UN go into Syria (are they still even a member?)  Or is that what the russians are gonna do, send in more given they are already there?  Because if all the borders were closed, what would those people do then?  Would they fight?  Would they want to protect their country?  Would IS and their allies be able to attack them all or could the UN protect them?  Should the UN protect them?

 

And whilst I find some comments abhorrent re the security risk and what if terrorists are slipping through with genuine refugees, at the same time it does seem somewhat strange that from the media reports there appears to be many more men than women.

 

The thing is, this hasn't happened overnight - and it's been the typical "stick the kettle on, make a nice cuppa tea and it'll all blow over" attitude by many countries.

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Hi,

 

Security risk isn't just about terrorists and I didn't say terrorists were walking amongst these people, I was actually referring to thieves ,fraudsters, rapists and the like should have perhaps made myself bit clearer . There will be people like this in those crowds just by the laws of probability.

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