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100 Days to Scottish Independence Referendum


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@ Gibmac: You only need to wear the hat if it fits. If you and yours have never participated or supported any sort of bickering with your fellow Scots and others based on old clan rivalries, religious grounds, England being the "auld enemy" etc, its difficult to see on what grounds you feel insulted as you're an innocent bystander.

 

I'm well aware that to an outsider looking in Shetlanders can be seen as only good for getting severely pished out of their boxes, I don't take umbrage to that, as its not something I'm in the habit of participating in, but I can see why they gain that impression. You just need to observe any average weekend. By the same token an outsider looking in to Scotland sees little but old rivalries with England, current sectarianism, and old clan wars and treachery.

 

Both are certainly sweeping generalisations of highly questionable accuracy, but regardless of that, stand in folk's mind as their first impressions of what they met. If the folk who have no part and want no part in contributing to either of those being the image folk see, want to ensure others see things differently. Its PR from those who object to being seen in such a way thats needed to ensure the desired image is portrayed, as folk are entitled to form whatever opinion they will from whats available to them.

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Yet much of this Scottish independence lark is being driven on the backs of William Wallace et al, which is a significantly older "issue", and while there's regular mob rule over whether you like green or orange best, and whose version of worshiping their imaginary friend has legitimacy - all far too hypocritical for my tastes entirely.

 

Sorry if I've missed something but when has any of this been the driving factor behind Scottish independence? 

 

It's people that have paid no attention, that have done no research, yet are default "no" voters because they believe this kind of nonsense. Please do some actual research before the 18th of September. Explore the positives & negatives of both sides with an open mind and then make your decision. After all, it's not just your vote, it's a vote for future generations - it's too important to be deciding on such pointless arguments! 

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Nah.

 

Prodding the Scots with a pointy stick is a worthwhile pastime. :P

 

Said the bloke from Caithness :)

 

Seriously though, there's plenty voting 'yes' in Scotland based upon a skewed version of history and perspective with little relevance to modern day politics or attitudes. I know this because, sadly, more than a handful of my friends are voting along those lines. Not all, but a fair old chunk of them.

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I'm not bigoted at all.  Perhaps I was a little "to the point" but as a nation Scotland/Scots are very short tempered and many of the ones I've experienced would fall out with their own shadow.

 

I remember a work colleague from Scotland who arrived here and the first thing he did was ask us if we were "blue or green?".....erm, this is Shetland mate. 

 

Indeed, just look at the utter hatred of the so-called "Old Firm"(whatever that actually means).

 

And then there's the "Parades Season" where the streets are lined with the opposing sides hurling abuse at the ones parading.

 

What a lovely country!.

 

I wasn't trying to offend anybody, it's just the simple truth.

Edited by Kavi Ugl
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Yet much of this Scottish independence lark is being driven on the backs of William Wallace et al, which is a significantly older "issue", and while there's regular mob rule over whether you like green or orange best, and whose version of worshiping their imaginary friend has legitimacy - all far too hypocritical for my tastes entirely.

 

Sorry if I've missed something but when has any of this been the driving factor behind Scottish independence? 

 

It's people that have paid no attention, that have done no research, yet are default "no" voters because they believe this kind of nonsense. Please do some actual research before the 18th of September. Explore the positives & negatives of both sides with an open mind and then make your decision. After all, it's not just your vote, it's a vote for future generations - it's too important to be deciding on such pointless arguments! 

 

 

Its the level of intelligence I've seen the SNP and by default sometimes the Yes camp punting the vast majority of their spiel at. The real issues, as I see them, that go in to making a solid case for the practicalities of independence have been woefully ignored for a mire of soundbites and hype. Yes, we know most of such things will have to be negotiated should events go that far, but surely expecting a fully comprehensive overview of wee Eck's dream of his Scotland isn't too much to ask. There are far too many things that the best your average punter can do is assume the plan is for no change, not because anybody who is in a place to do so, has said so, but because nobody has said anything. I could write a list the length of my arm of subjects which seem to have been treated in this way, including, what sort of border will be for England/Scotland, and what sort of restrictions/dues are envisaged - there's a pageful of questions on that one alone, what happens with the Mail, what about territorial waters, what about them in relation to Rockall, what about the redrawn offshore boundary on the east coast, etc. Instead we've been bombarded with vague one liners capable of nothing more than a screening of "Braveheart" or a rebel rouser encouraging their pals to get their swallie in an watch the boys drubbing the English at fitba would.

 

Whatever the "positives" of any independence, I'm afraid my research has met negatives which are insurmountable. An independent Scotland will be a single party socialist state, I loathe nailing my colours to the mast of any one particular party or philosophy as I believe them all as crooked as each other, but there are certain factions I know for certain I'd never consider aligning myself with, and Socialism is definitely one of them. Secondly, in 15 years of Holyrood I see zero benefits having been achieved for either Scotland and Scots, but a silly amount of money having been swallowed on a pointless talking shop. It worked the way it was before devolution, from where I'm seeing it its worked less well since, and that can only be attributed to the existence of Holyrood. Why on earth would I want a new and upgraded version of the same, with no Westminster casting a jaundiced eye over them from time to time to make sure they weren't getting too big for their boots as an added negative.

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Similar thoughts wi me.

 

I've not heard one single concrete proposal for Shetland and indeed all the issues that should have been addressed haven't.

 

There's no point in telling me "it's all in the White Paper" because I have neither the time nor patience to wade through it.

 

Whilst bearing in mind Stuart Hill's argument, the SNP/Yes Campaign have had the chance to put forward a solid proposal of Home Rule for Shetland with what it would entail but they have failed miserably.  Indeed, it's obvious they don't want to see it.

 

90% of what I've seen on the Yes Shetland Facebook page is "oil boom, oil boom, oil boom" propoganda and vitriolic comments towards the Torys/Westminster.  I'm no fan of the latter but it shows you were 95% of them are coming from.

 

All we've had from Nicola Sturgeon is vague waffle about "powers" being transfered from Westminster to Edinburgh then "to island communities" in the event of an Independant Scotland.

 

I don't want the Revenue from the Crown Estate, I want the Crown Estate turfed out of Shetland's waters.  Period.

 

For me, Westminster kept Holyrood on a much needed leash.  With a Yes vote, the leash will be off.......

Edited by Kavi Ugl
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^ I'm not entirely sure about blaming the Yes camp for people like that, while they might try harder to rein in such things, the unfortunate truth is such folk are of the level of intelligence Salmond in particular, and the SNP in general have been punting all their soundbite spiel and nationalistic agitating towards. It was inevitable, whether they want it or not, that the Yes camp were going to struggle to not be dragged down to such neanderthal levels by those with too much time on their hands to think and too little to think with, sent their way by the campaign's chosen target audience.

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Yeh, I did see that it appeared to be one individual but equally as bad was the hectoring by the people holding the YES boards.  I was really just trying to draw attention to the whole scene :).

 

They wouldn't let that Jim Murphy speak.

 

That sounds familiar......

Edited by Kavi Ugl
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I am staggered by the number of people I’ve met who appear to be under the illusion we are holding an election on September 18th to decide whether or not Alex Salmond should become “Lord Emperor of Scotland”.

 

“He is promising this but he won’t be able to do that” they say, as if we are holding a presidential election.

 

We all slag off politicians but it is them most people are looking to for direction when it comes to deciding how they will vote in the referendum.

 

Our inability to rationally debate independence amongst ourselves in our homes, workplaces and in our streets has highlighted how dependent we are.

 

No wonder so many are turd scared of going it alone.

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I am staggered by the number of people I’ve met who appear to be under the illusion we are holding an election on September 18th to decide whether or not Alex Salmond should become “Lord Emperor of Scotland”.

 

“He is promising this but he won’t be able to do that” they say, as if we are holding a presidential election.

 

We all slag off politicians but it is them most people are looking to for direction when it comes to deciding how they will vote in the referendum.

 

Our inability to rationally debate independence amongst ourselves in our homes, workplaces and in our streets has highlighted how dependent we are.

 

No wonder so many are turd scared of going it alone.

 

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong where everyone is concerned, but I do think you're been quite patronising towards a hell of a lot of people with this. I also see it as quite disingenuous to try and argue it has nothing to do with the individual players in the game either.

 

Scotland is being offered the chance to vote in a referendum on Scottish independence, given that the SNP are the only party with an independence policy, and Salmond is their leader and main mouthpiece, their and his vision of independence is the only one the population are being spoon fed pre-referendum.

 

Additionally should the referendum produce a yes majority, the success or otherwise of negotiations that shapes the advantages and disadvantages of the version of independence Scotland eventually gets will be based on the vision of independence the SNP and Salmond in particular has, and their and his ability to successfully negotiate favourable terms. As they and he are, and will be the party and person leading and dominating them, and as they and he are the party which are and will be until after the proposed independence date, the government of Scotland.

 

I'll agree with you, insofar as to say it's not all about the players concerned, but IMHO it's no more correct to try and claim it has nothing to do with the players at all, and is all about the issue. When the issue and eventual outcome is at best heavily dominated, if not exclusively in the hands of certain players, in this case Salmond and the SNP.

 

If you're right, and most people look to politicians for direction, then no wonder we get what we get, and any independence Scotland may get is doomed to utter disaster from the get go. Facts, common sense, logic and reason should surely be from where people find direction, and those are virtually extinct commodites in political circles.

Edited by Ghostrider
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