Distortio Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 no. what i'm saying is you have to either concede that a 'yes' vote isn't/wasn't a vote for the snp, or accept that a 'no' vote in a european referendum is a vote for ukip. i would suggest that a 'yes' vote wasn't a vote for the snp, just like a 'no' vote wouldn't be a vote for ukip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 no. what i'm saying is you have to either concede that a 'yes' vote isn't/wasn't a vote for the snp, or accept that a 'no' vote in a european referendum is a vote for ukip. i would suggest that a 'yes' vote wasn't a vote for the snp, just like a 'no' vote wouldn't be a vote for ukip.You might want to suggest that but, you would be wrong. Mainly because you want to put people/things into little boxes.Real life isn't like that.. I haven't (as far as I know) been 'programmed' into a particular way on thinking and, I do not run around 'chanting the party mantra' on any single issue. Far from being a vote for UKIP, my NO vote would be a vote against Europe and the established political hierarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distortio Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) no. what i'm saying is you have to either concede that a 'yes' vote isn't/wasn't a vote for the snp, or accept that a 'no' vote in a european referendum is a vote for ukip. i would suggest that a 'yes' vote wasn't a vote for the snp, just like a 'no' vote wouldn't be a vote for ukip.You might want to suggest that but, you would be wrong. Mainly because you want to put people/things into little boxes.Real life isn't like that.. then that means you were wrong for "putting things in little boxes" when you insisted a 'yes' vote was a vote for the snp. no. what i'm saying is you have to either concede that a 'yes' vote isn't/wasn't a vote for the snp, or accept that a 'no' vote in a european referendum is a vote for ukip. i would suggest that a 'yes' vote wasn't a vote for the snp, just like a 'no' vote wouldn't be a vote for ukip. Far from being a vote for UKIP, my NO vote would be a vote against Europe and the established political hierarchy. see... Far from being a vote for the snp, my YES vote would be a vote against the established uk political hierarchy. fair enough, yeah? Edited September 22, 2014 by Distortio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Unfortunately, 45% of the turnout now feel pretty bad about it and a good percentage of those do not appear mature enough to accept defeat. 1.6 million is a lot of pissed off people... from what i've seen most yes voters, despite being understandably deflated initially, have tried to remain positive. Positive is good, but when its displayed combined with equal doses of insularity and what could arguably be described as denial, it becomes a whole other beast. Unfortunately, 45% of the turnout now feel pretty bad about it and a good percentage of those do not appear mature enough to accept defeat. 1.6 million is a lot of pissed off people... but then we all knew by now that wm "vows" couldn't be trusted, surely? Yes, but we also know that Holyrood's "vows" weren't worth any more than their's, possibly less. A 'Yes' vote was just an exercise in moving from one scraggy bunch of despotic liars to another, so why bother with a change for change's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distortio Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 i wouldn't say holyrood's offer was worth less at all. at least it had some concrete offers from the start as opposed to some last minute panicked scribblings that clearly weren't thought through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 ^ Westminster's offer was the status quo, I was and am quite happy with that, and we know what they're like for delivering it, they have a long track record. The last minute sweeteners were un-necessary, and in my eyes made choosing the status quo less attractive, not more. What the referendum was offering I didn't like, didn't want, and didn't need, and I did not believe whoever ended up in Holyrood in the event of independence had the means or ability, even if they had the will, to deliver on it all in full, even if any of it had been of interest to me. Scotland and Scots are welcome to their independence, if they want it, I have no problem with that. I just don't believe Shetland and Shetlanders have any place in their bickerings with the English and how they unfold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distortio Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 so... you want less powers rather than more. okaaaaay then. just how you feel we are better governed by the posho eton-oxbridge bullingdon crowd than people closer to home? in fact, if as you say westminster are "a bunch of scraggy despotic liars" why would you be "quite happy with that"? and like it or not, shetland is part of scotland, it wouldn't default to an english county in the event of scottish independence you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 so... you want less powers rather than more. okaaaaay then. Didn't say that. If Scotland wants more powers, that's fine with me, I just don't want Shetland to be part of a Scotland with more powers. If Shetland wants more powers, that's fine with me, but only as either part of the U.K. or a Crown Dependency, etc. just how you feel we are better governed by the posho eton-oxbridge bullingdon crowd than people closer to home? The crowd in Edenbroo may be "closer" in terms of physical distance, but "further away" in terms of respect, attitude etc. in fact, if as you say westminster are "a bunch of scraggy despotic liars" why would you be "quite happy with that"? They're the lesser evil. Holyrood look and act like their less intelligent, less educated, ne'er-do-well distant cousins. and like it or not, shetland is part of scotland, it wouldn't default to an english county in the event of scottish independence you know... I'm well aware of the both the former and latter, although it bears saying that former has nothing to do with choice, and has everything to do with misforture of historical circumstance. However, nothing is ever cast in tablets of stone, Shetland has the same right of self-determination as anyone else. If we democratically choose to enter in to a negotiated alliance with England, Wales or Northern Ireland to ensure continuity of being within the UK, and as a result of that detach ourselves from Scotland, there's damn little Scotland can do about it unless sit and bitch about it. Gorgonzola Butt-cheese 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgonzola Butt-cheese Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Good grief ! Never mind that s**t , here comes Robinson !http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scottish-independence-debate/9337-sic-to-strike-while-iron-is-hot-to-gain-more-influence When I suggested he be found a more suitable position, what I had in mind was to send him to make an inventory of how many traffic cones was in the store at the greenhead base . A very important task which should see him happily through to retirement............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) ^ I was thinking sending him to measure by hand a teaspoonful at a time, how many litres of sewage passes through the pump at the head of the pier for all time, was nearer his calling. Edited September 22, 2014 by Ghostrider Gorgonzola Butt-cheese 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distortio Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 so... you want less powers rather than more. okaaaaay then. Didn't say that. If Scotland wants more powers, that's fine with me, I just don't want Shetland to be part of a Scotland with more powers. If Shetland wants more powers, that's fine with me, but only as either part of the U.K. or a Crown Dependency, etc. just how you feel we are better governed by the posho eton-oxbridge bullingdon crowd than people closer to home? The crowd in Edenbroo may be "closer" in terms of physical distance, but "further away" in terms of respect, attitude etc. [westminster are] the lesser evil. Holyrood look and act like their less intelligent, less educated, ne'er-do-well distant cousins. funny that, i'd have said more or less the EXACT opposite. wm is stuck in an archaic traditional timewarp. it answers mostly to the city and is thoroughly detached from 'the people'. holyrood isn't dictated to by the big city, corporate pressures are lesser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I'll agree with you that Holyrood isn't as influenced by the "City" or corporate, but only with they qualification of 'yet' being added to the end of it. As an indpendent nation IMHO Scotland would have had to quickly sell out on their principles as much as Westminster have, and kow-tow to whatever appeased the financial and business interests within their nation, or go bankrupt. That tends to be how life is the world over, and I can't see how Holyrood and Scotland could survive without getting with the program too. You're entitled to your opinion of the players in both arenas though, as I am to mine. Being as they're polar opposites, I guess the best compromise is to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distortio Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 why would you rather side with those who you say have already sold out to corporate interests than those who as yet haven't? particularly with the grassroots groundswell who took an interest for the first time the pressure on the scottish government to resist corporate interests would be much greater. and remember scotland's nhs hasn't been sold off because we have some powers to prevent it. not enough to save it indefinitely as the westminster budget cuts will keep coming, but apply that situation to all public services and that should serve as an indication of the bigger picture for the next few years. your stance is very much one of resigned defeatism over hope. which would make for a poor election slogan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 why would you rather side with those who you say have already sold out to corporate interests than those who as yet haven't? particularly with the grassroots groundswell who took an interest for the first time the pressure on the scottish government to resist corporate interests would be much greater. and remember scotland's nhs hasn't been sold off because we have some powers to prevent it. not enough to save it indefinitely as the westminster budget cuts will keep coming, but apply that situation to all public services and that should serve as an indication of the bigger picture for the next few years. your stance is very much one of resigned defeatism over hope. which would make for a poor election slogan... Because the painful part is already over. We know what they're like, know what can be expected from them, and treat them accordingly. Scotland would inevitably have to go through the painful process all over again, and if a Scottish Government resisted and fought the process, it would just make it all the more lengthy and painful, probably resulting in irreparable damage. You either work "with" financial institutions and business to have a thriving and bouyant economy, or you have a bankrupt country. I am not a supporter of the NHS, I'm a believer that we would have a far more cost effective, efficient and fair health service if it was put out to private tender and/or private enterprise working in conjunction within legislative safeguards, and I'm less than convinced that it wouldn't be a good idea to do the same with most public services as well. I'd term it a realism over false hope attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Knows Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 The NHS pre-privatisation in the UK has been independently assessed as the best in the world so why waste money with unnecessary bureaucracy of market testing through privatisation of services? http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/nhs/10907823/Britains-NHS-is-the-worlds-best-health-care-system-says-report.html The evidence of marketisation of health care adding value to the quality of service in the UK or elsewhere is unproven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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