Alistair Carmichael memo leak and inquiry: should he resign?

[Colin]

But, a witch hunt it is.... Conducted by people who will stop at almost nothing to achieve their aims. 

 

The only "winners" are going to be the crowd funded lawyers when, imho, if the matter is considered worthy of a court case, then the crown(?) should pursue it not a bunch of "tartan warriors".

[Gorgonzola Butt-cheese]

Having just watched last night's question time on i player it was interesting to see two topics discussed which are linked in a serious way for Orkney and Shetland.

1.) Carbuncles Caffuful

2.) The referendum on E.U. Membership.

 

Carmichael and the lib dems are a pro union party and Orkney & Shetland delivered one of the largest results within Scotland in favour of remaining in a United Kingdom.

 

Now the SNP  would rather not allow us the democratic choice on the United Kingdoms continued expensive membership and status as a sub standard democracy as a province of Europe.

They also want to thwart the United Kingdoms chance of returning to a fully self governing sovereign democracy by giving up membership of this supranational  politburo.

They plan to do this by demanding each of the home nations of the UK deliver a majority to leave the E.U.

 

This undemocratic demand could mean that Northern Ireland or perhaps slightly more than half the electorate of Scotland could thwart the democratic wish of THE MAJORITY of UK voters.

 

Now if we do have a by election and end up with an SNP-EU stooge  representing us followed by an EU referendum in which Scotand votes to continue as member and a province of the EU Superstate.

They will demand another UK splitting referendum and Orkney and Shetlands fate will be to  remain with Scotland within the EU, I would not expect any democratic choice for Orkney and Shetland with SNP representatives as they ruled out us having a say on choosing whether to stay with Rump UK the last time around

 

On the other hand with Carbuncle as a pro unionist I would think our democratic choices would be better.

 

Now I know this is a very distant set of hypothetical potentials for the future and I know the mainstream media machine have already started mind drubbing the masses into believing that E.U. membership is essential for our very existence.

 

But ask yourself this - Do you know who your MEP is or anything about how the EU politburo actually works?

The establishment prefers not to openly educate us on this as it is the undemocratic gravy train for political failures, just look at Niell kinnock , failed to become a democratically voted in primeminister  and then got parachuted in as an EU commisioner by the next labour government and walked away into retirement stinking rich.... He is just one of many

 

I do not expect a fair and balanced view on the pro's and con's of EU membership , expect a dirty skewed campaign which will make Alistair Carbuncle look like a NUN !!

Edited May 29, 2015 by Gorgonzola Butt-cheese

[Colin]

"They also want to thwart the United Kingdoms chance of returning to a fully self governing sovereign democracy by giving up membership of this supranational  politburo."

 

The SNP obviously think that they have a little "clout" at westminster and, who knows, they might have but, I suspect that they are going to end up being out-manouvered.

 

When I heard the above comment, I thought that it was in complete opposition to their chosen aim of NOT remaining as part of the UK and, therefore, having no right to dictate terms to the rest.

 

What would they say if they held another referendum and, NI said "sorry, you can't leave"

 

"They will demand another UK splitting referendum and Orkney and Shetlands fate will be to  remain with Scotland within the EU, I would not expect any democratic choice for Orkney and Shetland with SNP representatives as they ruled out us having a say on choosing whether to stay with Rump UK the last time around"

 

I would agree up to a point but, if the people(?) of Shetland were to become sufficiently motivated then, there would be nothing the SNP could do to stup us requesting crown dependency status.  After all, the SNP presume to support various UN mandates  and, one of them is the right to "self determination". 

I also believe that Westminster might welcome us (complete with oil revenues and fishing rights) with open arms.

 

The subject was touched upon (briefly) by the conservative on last nights panel and, I am (not) surprised that the point wasn't pursued.

 

"Do you know who your MEP is or anything about how the EU politburo actually works?"

 

No and, a little.

 

Kinnock is a prime example of a sellout.  Apart from being, potentially, the best prime minister we never had, he then went on to allow both himself and his wife to be "bought off".  Can't blame him in some ways.  His career(?) was over, shot to pieces, all that was left was "take the money and run"

 

"do not expect a fair and balanced view on the pro's and con's of EU membership , expect a dirty skewed campaign which will make Alistair Carbuncle look like a NUN !!"

 

I would be interested to see how cameron, as a pro european, handles this.  Carmichael, imho, is a bit of a "virgin" in this company.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Colin

[Capeesh]

This must be the most civilised witch hunt in history, protesters who (going by the pictures) included babies in pushchairs, children and some frail looking elderly people.

These people don't look very sinister to me.

They will stop at nothing to achieve their aims... Even going as far as getting a lawyer...I even saw a...PETITION...think of the children.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

This must be the most civilised witch hunt in history, protesters who (going by the pictures) included babies in pushchairs, children and some frail looking elderly people.

These people don't look very sinister to me.

They will stop at nothing to achieve their aims... Even going as far as getting a lawyer...I even saw a...PETITION...think of the children.

 

I think it's pretty low to have children involved in political demonstrations.

[Colin]

Need to drag them along just to keep the numbers up...

[Capeesh]

I totally agree it's a fiendish, lowly, sinister way to behave, any upright citizen would inform social services. Surely these dastardly people could of found a babysitter or in the case of the older children let them play Xbox with their mates instead of being in an embarrassing demo with their parents.

[Colin]

It's all about "perception" and, it has made the national news.

 

The "perception" is that there is a massive protest when, in fact, it is the opposite that might be true, particularly as some of the protesters(?) do not seem to be able to vote and others, probably, cannot remember why they would vote anyway.. ..

 

Sure, Carmichael held onto his seat with a pretty small majority, and maybe I move in the wrong circles but, I have only encountered 1 person who thinks he should resign.  The rest say, he won, let him get on with it.

 

Informing Social Services of this particular "abuse" would, imho, put you into the same petty minded, spitefull group as the protestors.

[Capeesh]

I'm afraid the the SNP, not satisfied with a thumping big majority, are not going to stop until they control every seat in Scotland and will seek to drive out the "English" at every opportunity.

 

I do not doubt that they will use their new found "muscle" to demand another referendum.

 

We will wake up one morning to "Hello one party state" and, then the tyranny will begin.

 

Even a plea for Crown Dependency status would be difficult because of the number of Dingalings SNP supporters who appeared to have invaded us recently.

Maybe the SNP voters you know (looking at the election result for Shetland they are your neighbours, workmates, family members etc) have listened to opinions like these and decided to keep their opinions to themselves or nod and agree to keep the peace.

I would imagine a large number of Lib Dem voters would be uncomfortable with their MP all over the media for wrongdoing but who knows.

[Distortio]

Okay, so you're saying its okay to lie if you get away with it, but not okay to lie if you don't.

 

Frankly I'd much rather just get rid of all the liars regardless of their colours and make it a level playing field, and Bruce is right, they do all tell lies, just as all humans tell lies, none of us are innocent of that, its a human failing, end of.

 

You are never going to rid humans and by association politics of lies, so the best we can hope for is to try and curtail the level of lying that occurs. In the big picture this "he said, he thought he heard her saying, and I let his note fall in to the hands of the media without properly checking it", is pretty far down the seriousness ladder, and I do not for one minute believe any other politician would when faced with similar would act to any higher a standard.

this whole defence of "they all tell lies, everybody tells lies, it's expected of them, so when they're caught lying let's accept it and do nothing about it" is pretty lame, no? how do you ever hope to "curtail the level of lying that occurs"  if you just want to brush it dismissively under the carpet when it happens right under your nose? and it's ridiculously presumptuous to assume that every politician would have done the same. i'm fairly certain there are those who wouldn't.

 

carmichael was elected to a position of power to represent us in parliament, and like it or not he is now tainted with this lie. so when he goes to negotiate anything on our behalf will he be trusted to do so honestly and fairly? some will say yes on the grounds this was just a white lie and was purely about gaining an election victory. others may wonder if it shows he's not averse to underhand tactics and will lie to cover his tracks to get whatever result is best for him, not necessarily his constituents, and he just happens to have been caught out this time. either way, can those negotiating with him trust him? or will they wonder if he's going to leak some spurious claim to undermine them to the press under his usual cloak of anonymity?

[Distortio]

There are lot more serious lies ,mistruths and devious people in the world out there. It's about putting things into perspective surely and looking at the much wider picture.

yeah, we should really be remembering what he hasn't done. he hasn't murdered some pensioners in the face with swords and sold their body parts to people-trafficking isis witch doctors while taking legal highs and claiming unemployment benefits...

 

let's let him off!

[Ghostrider]

this whole defence of "they all tell lies, everybody tells lies, it's expected of them, so when they're caught lying let's accept it and do nothing about it" is pretty lame, no? how do you ever hope to "curtail the level of lying that occurs"  if you just want to brush it dismissively under the carpet when it happens right under your nose? and it's ridiculously presumptuous to assume that every politician would have done the same. i'm fairly certain there are those who wouldn't.

 

The very art of successful politics, and countless other professions is to manipulate and present the information in such a way as you achieve the result you desire from your audience. Whether what someone says is accepted as acceptably truthful or not, it wholly down to individual opinion, and thats before you enter the debate of whether the inaccuracies/omissions from any one given statement are due to intentionally wishing to decieve or out of pure ignorance.

 

Its the old story of ask two witnesses who saw a car crash to describe it. You're likely to get one saying, "A red car hit a white car", and another saying "A white Kia Picanto travelling along the High Street at I'd estimate 45mph on the wrong side of the road driven by a young dark haired male, collided with a red Ford Fiesta which was travelling at I'd estimate 20mph in the opposite direction driven by an elderly white haired female". The former description is not technically a "lie", but it is certainly a lie by omission. It is however considered an acceptble "lie" if the former person's description is down to their lack of knowledge and powers of observation, but an unacceptble lie if they could have provided an equally detailed description but chose not to as they were covering for the Picanto guy, or had a grudge against the Fiesta lady.

 

Virtually nothing in life it cleanly black or white, but rather varying shades of grey, how dark the greyness is and folk still generally consider it acceptable, is usually dictated by the relevant circumstances on a case by case basis.

 

carmichael was elected to a position of power to represent us in parliament, and like it or not he is now tainted with this lie. so when he goes to negotiate anything on our behalf will he be trusted to do so honestly and fairly? some will say yes on the grounds this was just a white lie and was purely about gaining an election victory. others may wonder if it shows he's not averse to underhand tactics and will lie to cover his tracks to get whatever result is best for him, not necessarily his constituents, and he just happens to have been caught out this time. either way, can those negotiating with him trust him? or will they wonder if he's going to leak some spurious claim to undermine them to the press under his usual cloak of anonymity?

 

This all relies on the premise that it is a proven fact that he did lie (maybe the folk who are so keen to accuse him of such are actually the ones telling the lie ), however I don't believe that has been proven yet.

 

If you want to accuse him of carelessness, possibly incompetence, or even irresponsibility, then my stance would very likely be very different, but on the information currently available, I don't believe anyone is in a position to make a judgement call as to whether any of his actions amounted to a lie, or even an unacceptable mistruth.

 

So, someone in his office wrote a note about an alleged exchange between Sturgeon and some Frenchie they'd evesdropped on, and it was given to the press.

 

Yes, certainly, Carmichael being as he was at the top of the Totem is ultimately answerable for everything the minions in that office does, and he should have been fully conversant with the contents of that note before he signed off on it.

 

What matters, and what makes the difference between carelessness/incompetence/irresponsibility and a lie is whether Carmichael knew exactly what that note contained, believed it to be inaccurate, but chose to make it public anyway. Or whether he simply trusted a minion's judgement that it was "okay" for publishing, because they said so. As far as I'm aware, that distinction has not yet been established. As Tennant & Lowe wrote, 'Nothing has been proved'.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Ghostrider

[Ghostrider]

While we're at it on politicians and "acceptable" vs. "unacceptble" "lies".

 

"Iraq has WMD's" said Blair countless times, and he committed our military at god knows what cost to invade and occupy another Sovereign nation on the strenght of it. Don't get me wrong, I shed no tears over Saddam's demise, the world lost nothing when they lost him, but it was a hollow "victory" when our great leader dug himself in as deep a hole as Saddam hid in to get it. Instead of having the balls just to be honest enough to stand up and say, "that Saddam bam is a total squelchy booble pop and I'm taking him down just because....."

 

Calls for his head didn't excactly find much support of lead to anything.....Only a 5 year "Peace Envoy" job in the Middle East (Irony much???)

 

If the top dog can get away scot free with that doozie, it sets the standard for the game thereafter, and ripping the pith of a regional party leader's political preference during an election campaign is a long way from the same league.

 

P.S. Does Nat Nikki have Jacobite sympathies that was making her cosy up to "auld freends" to see the lay of the land - A promise to resurrect the old Stuart royal dynasty in an independent Scotland would surely get the nationalist fervour racked up a few notches.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Ghostrider

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

Allegedly "Scotland would prefer" ... na, not a personal preference at all there eh?

[Colin]

Maybe Carmichael should take legal advice of his own..  Preferably from the same "legal" people that advised Salmon and Sturgeon during the referendum..

Edited May 30, 2015 by Colin