Self-sustaining Shetland

[BGDDisco]

Prior to the meeting at 7:30pm in the town hall on Wednesday, I'd like to start up a forum to open up a discussion on what the big questions should be for this meeting.

 

I did wonder what would happen to the NHS if Shetland left the UK / Scotland. The people who are greatly in favour of splitting with the UK use the Falkland Islands as an example of autonomy

 

http://www.falklands.gov.fk/self-governance/

 

It appears they have a Falkland Islands Government Health Service. I shudder at the thought of SICHS, but that is likely what would have to happen.

 

Any other big questions? And please let the should we / shouldn't we discussion happen after we have figured out the right list of questions needing answered, and not here in this thread. 

[whalsa]

This is certainly one of the big questions. The new Government (note it would be a new government NOT the SIC) would have to decide what the health service would look like. Various options have been discussed, a new service could be set up, a deal could be struck to stay part of the UK NHS or a framework could be put in place in which the local authority hired a private firm such as BUPA to provide healtcare for all residents (this would obviously have to be carefully managed). 

The initial aim of the group is simply to pursue self governance so at the present time we will not be able to provide too many policy details as that would be presumptuous as we do not know what a new shetland government/the shetland people will decide in the future.

 

However if the Wir Shetland group ends up becoming a political party and standing for election we do have a draft manifesto which would be expanded upon in order to address policy points in more detail. 

 

In my opinion the main point we are trying to get across with this launch is that Shetlanders can decide their own destiny democratically. Many people are unhappy with the current state of affairs for a multitude of reasons. We have a chance to change this for ourselves rather than just moaning about what out of touch politicians in Brussels/London/Edinburgh have done now.

Open discussion on here is welcome but it is equally welcome on the Wir Shetland Facebook page. There is also a website www.wirshetland.org and a twitter account. 

[George.]

When Shetland finally goes independent will any monies collected as taxes continue be given to the leaches at Wasteminster for no good reason at all (as it is at present, for no good reason at all), or is it more likely to be collected by what will be the new Shetland government, for the benefit of solely the Shetland people?

[Ghostrider]

When Shetland finally goes independent will any monies collected as taxes continue be given to the leaches at Wasteminster for no good reason at all (as it is at present, for no good reason at all), or is it more likely to be collected by what will be the new Shetland government, for the benefit of solely the Shetland people?

 

You've answered your own question, the key word is "independent". When one is "independent", one calls all the shots, and one keeps eveything. If Shetland is simply a tax collector for somone else higher up the totem, its not independence. The UK has not been "independent" since 1973, its been an EEC/EU region who has had to do what it was told by Brussels, the proposed "independent" Scotland folk were asked to vote for last year was in no way going to be "independent", not while it retained a head of state and currency belonging to another nation, and intended to remain within the EU.

[whalsa]

When Shetland finally goes independent will any monies collected as taxes continue be given to the leaches at Wasteminster for no good reason at all (as it is at present, for no good reason at all), or is it more likely to be collected by what will be the new Shetland government, for the benefit of solely the Shetland people?

 

Full fiscal autonomy is the aim George. That means all taxes collected here will be spent here how we see fit. We are of the opinion that the vast resources here are ours and should benefit the people here first and foremost. 

 

If we are to achieve British Overseas Territory status then a deal will have to be struck with the UK Government, if we are relying on them for defence etc then this will have to be factored in. 

[whalsa]

 

When Shetland finally goes independent will any monies collected as taxes continue be given to the leaches at Wasteminster for no good reason at all (as it is at present, for no good reason at all), or is it more likely to be collected by what will be the new Shetland government, for the benefit of solely the Shetland people?

 

You've answered your own question, the key word is "independent". When one is "independent", one calls all the shots, and one keeps eveything. If Shetland is simply a tax collector for somone else higher up the totem, its not independence. The UK has not been "independent" since 1973, its been an EEC/EU region who has had to do what it was told by Brussels, the proposed "independent" Scotland folk were asked to vote for last year was in no way going to be "independent", not while it retained a head of state and currency belonging to another nation, and intended to remain within the EU.

 

Ghostrider a key aim of the campaign is to leave the madness of the EU and the CFP. We want to retain free trade with the EU but we do not want to be governed by them. 

[Capeesh]

How much of the UK continental shelf or economic exclusion zone do you think the UK government would be willing to give up voluntarily to Shetland for us to keep the taxes from?

If you don't want Shetland to be independent wouldn't it be the case that it would be 12 nautical miles, with a EU member (UK) having the waters surrounding anything beyond that?

Would that not make the position of our fishermen worse? Would we as a non EU autonomous region be able to fish in EU waters?

The EU recently imposed economic sanctions against the Faroe Islands (including Denmark who as an EU member had to impose sanctions against part of its own kingdom) for unilaterally deciding how much they could fish, would we get the same treatment?

[whalsa]

How much of the UK continental shelf or economic exclusion zone do you think the UK government would be willing to give up voluntarily to Shetland for us to keep the taxes from?

If you don't want Shetland to be independent wouldn't it be the case that it would be 12 nautical miles, with a EU member (UK) having the waters surrounding anything beyond that?

Would that not make the position of our fishermen worse? Would we as a non EU autonomous region be able to fish in EU waters?

The EU recently imposed economic sanctions against the Faroe Islands (including Denmark who as an EU member had to impose sanctions against part of its own kingdom) for unilaterally deciding how much they could fish, would we get the same treatment?

 

This is another key issue. We are seeking control of our EEZ. The whole thing would not be worth pursuing if we could only get 12 nautical miles. I am no expert on the subject but there is precedence for what we want. I can't see how the UK would retain the waters beyond the 12 mile limit, unless we agreed to that of course which no rational Shetlander would do. 

 

With another Scottish Independence referendum seeming likely the UK may be about to lose revenue from these waters anyway, would it not be better for them to retain some benefit (whatever is negotiated with us) than lose it completely? 

 

Of course if the UK simply will not entertain the idea then there is still the option of full independence which would be more difficult to implement but not impossible. 

 

Fishing quotas are another key issue. We want to have control of what is caught in our waters and this would mean our own fisheries ministry setting responsible sustainable quotas and working in conjunction with neighbouring regions. I believe the issue with the Faroese/Iceland increases was that the EU/Norway felt that the massive increase in quotas was threatening the sustainability of the stocks. Fish move, it is up to each nation with fishing grounds to manage them responsibly and it would be in our best interest to have a robust system for doing so. 

[Kavi Ugl]

I'd like to congatulate the people behind this new venture and hope my fellow Shetlanders will rally behind it.  I can't think of any other community in the world that would allow itself to be raped, pilaged and mis-treated as Shetland has been.

 

We don't have to sacrifice anything in exchange for remaining(if we ever were) a British Territory -  in my book the sea, oil, fishing and land are ours.

 

Besides, the simple fact is Westminster doesn't give a stuff about Shetland except for it being an oil/cash cow and Edinburgh is just a bunch of control freaks.

 

One initial piece of advice I would give is don't just look south, look north to our Faroese neighbours for what can be achieved.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Kavi Ugl

[whalsa]

I'd like to congatulate the people behind this new venture and hope my fellow Shetlanders will rally behind it.  I can't think of any other community in the world that would allow itself to be raped, pilaged and mis-treated as Shetland has been.

 

We don't have to sacrifice anything in exchange for remaining(if we ever were) a British Territory -  in my book the sea, oil, fishing and land are ours.

 

Besides, the simple fact is neither Westminster or Edinburgh give a stuff about Shetland except for it being an oil/cash cow.

 

One initial piece of advice I would give is don't just look south, look north to our Faroese neighbours for what can be achieved.

 

Exactly Kavi thank you for your message of support. I think a lot of people simply don't realise how much of a raw deal we have been getting all these years and especially now. 

 

I agree with you regarding the sea, oil, fishing and land. However if we are to remain a British Territory (and there are benefits to this scenario) I envisage a deal will have to be struck to pay for whatever services (defence etc) they provide. Any such deal would have to be just and enshrined in law to prevent abuse by whatever Government is in power in London. 

 

Faroe has been a much discussed example of some of the ideas we want to emulate. 

[Capeesh]

Sorry but I can't see any westminster government giving away a huge slice of its territory especially an area so rich with oil, gas and fish.

Nice dream though.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Capeesh

[Ghostrider]

Sorry but I can't see any westminster government giving away a huge slice of its territory especially an area so rich with oil, gas and fish.

Nice dream though.

 

That choice isn't Westminster's to make.

[whalsa]

Capeesh it is not up to Westminster how we choose to govern ourselves. They are quick to point out that the Falkland Islands have the right to self determination in order to stop them being absorbed by Argentina, it would be highly hypocritical of them to attempt to deny us self governance if it is what the majority of Shetlanders want.

 

The land and resources here belong to the people who live here. If we want to achieve British Overseas Territory status from the UK we may have to agree to allowing them to receive a percentage of oil and gas revenues (or some similar deal) in order to pay for services provided by them but this will be a negotiation. 

If your opinion is that it can't work you are entitled to that opinion but I would advise that you at least wait until you see what emerges from the campaign before you make up your mind, seemingly based upon some assumption that we are owned by the politicians in London and what they say goes. 

[Capeesh]

 

 

 

Sorry but I can't see any westminster government giving away a huge slice of its territory especially an area so rich with oil, gas and fish.

Nice dream though.

 

 

That choice isn't Westminster's to make.

How so? This group is looking for full fiscal autonomy for Shetland within the UK, that means they need to have the agreement of Westminster.

At the moment all taxes coming from the UK Continental Shelf goes straight to the treasury in London.

The UK has £1.5 Trillion debt, despite austerity the UK is still running a huge annual deficit, why would any Westminster government give up that lucrative revenue stream?

We might get control of the crown estate (seabed and foreshore up to 12 nautical miles) if they devolve it to the Scottish parliament (looking very doubtful) who in turn have promised to devolve it to us, but to think we'll get the revenue from the oil and gas fields and fishing grounds any farther out seems optimistic to say the least.

[Ghostrider]

 

 

 

Sorry but I can't see any westminster government giving away a huge slice of its territory especially an area so rich with oil, gas and fish.

Nice dream though.

 

That choice isn't Westminster's to make.

How so? This group is looking for full fiscal autonomy for Shetland within the UK, that means they need to have the agreement of Westminster.

 

You must be reading a different thread to me, the one I'm reading is about Shetland independence, which by definition means Shetland would no longer be part of the UK. If we wished to remain within the UK, we wouldn't be seeking independence, we'd be seeking some sort of Crown Dependency, Overseas Territory, Devolution of similar status. Certainly remaining within the UK should be an option that is considered, and part of that consideration needs to be what the UK wants from us as a continued member. but its just one of the options, not the only option thats up for the taking.

 

*If* Shetland chose to remain within the UK, the terms would have to be negotiated between both parties, not dictated by Westminster, and both sides would inevitably win and lose something in those negotiations. Shetland holds the Ace card at all times though, we can get up from the table at any time and sue for full independence and take everything with us, leaving Westminster with nothing. We're in a win/win situation whichever way, Westminster is in a lose a little or lose everything one. What we're worth to Westminster will dicate how much they're willing to give us to stay, and how much it'll cost us, assuming we have the wit to send in shrewd negotiators.