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Self-sustaining Shetland


BGDDisco
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Prior to the meeting at 7:30pm in the town hall on Wednesday, I'd like to start up a forum to open up a discussion on what the big questions should be for this meeting.

 

I did wonder what would happen to the NHS if Shetland left the UK / Scotland. The people who are greatly in favour of splitting with the UK use the Falkland Islands as an example of autonomy

 

http://www.falklands.gov.fk/self-governance/

 

It appears they have a Falkland Islands Government Health Service. I shudder at the thought of SICHS, but that is likely what would have to happen.

 

Any other big questions? And please let the should we / shouldn't we discussion happen after we have figured out the right list of questions needing answered, and not here in this thread. 

 

The NHS would probably carry on regardless ... just not in Shetland.  Is that really such a bad thing?  There's already four separate NHS bodies and to be blunt, the English one gives patients more rights and choices than the Scottish one.  All four NHS bodies have Boards or Trusts and all of them buy in services so there's already an internal market.  So if Shetland set up its own health service, we might well find that buying from Norway or other European countries was cheaper than buying from parts of Scotland.  Hell, we could even set up an exchange system with Cuban doctors (don't knock it, their doctors are well trained).  Given that the current Medical Director in Shetland used to be the Chief Medical Officer for The Falklands, are you that worried?

 

Get a decent infrastructure in place and have tax breaks so all those data storage companies, online gambling organisations, online porn, etc., not limited by draconian laws but serving an international market, can set up companies and store their data on file servers here ... many an organisation is already based in Malta, or some in Canada, because their laws are more favourable.  Booze 'n' ciggies - ah yes, booze cruises to the Shetland Isles instead of France.

 

And as Ghostie points out, it wouldn't be Westminster's right re fishing and oil; it astounds me that people seem to have swallowed hook, line and sinker the 12 mile rule when if a country is independent it's a far greater area.

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Ghostrider and Suffererof1crankymofo are both right. 

Our current aim is to attempt to obtain British Overseas Territory status as we feel this offers the best of both worlds if it is implemented on our terms. We will have full fiscal autonomy, control of our full EEZ and an exit from the EU but still retain free trade (as Faroe does).

 

Negotiations will be held with the UK to decide what we give them in return for this status and them providing defence or any other service. As Ghostrider already said they can either lose everything via Shetland or Scotland independence or they can retain some revenue by agreeing a mutually beneficial set up with us. Control of the full EEZ reallly would be a "line in the sand" in that if we couldn't get that there would be no point in continuing negotiations and full independence would have to be declared if in line with the wishes of the Shetland people. 

Just realised I am almost repeating Ghostriders post, it is encouraging to see someone outwith the Wir Shetland group hitting the nail on the head. Especially when some obviously are forgetting what our rights are. 

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There are pros and cons to both routes Colin. Ultimately the decision will lie with the people in Shetland which is what this is all about, if full independence had public support then there would be no stopping it. 

In my opinion going down the route of only allowing "native" Shetlanders to have a vote is a dangerous one. Where is the cut off point? Do I have to be able to trace my lineage all the way back to the Picts or do I just have to be born here? Who decides who gets to vote and who doesn't? We do not want to be seen as xenophobic Shetland Nationalists. 

In regard to the SIC I agree with you regarding leadership. However a few of them have already put their support behind this campaign but in the event of successful devolution/independence the SIC will be dissolved and a new government formed. If we cannot get suitable political figures to back the campaign then the option of forming a new political party is on the table, then we would have our own candidates for local and national elections.

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Sorry but I can't see any westminster government giving away a huge slice of its territory especially an area so rich with oil, gas and fish.

Nice dream though.

 

 

That choice isn't Westminster's to make.

How so? This group is looking for full fiscal autonomy for Shetland within the UK, that means they need to have the agreement of Westminster.

 

You must be reading a different thread to me, the one I'm reading is about Shetland independence, which by definition means Shetland would no longer be part of the UK.

Apologies, my mistake, I didn't realise we were talking about full independence for Shetland.

I thought we were talking about Shetland getting some kind of overseas territory status, with the slight problem of not being overseas but slap bang in the middle of the UK continental shelf.

Jersey who have had a similar status have only just been granted control of the crown estate (12 nautical miles) I just thought it was a bit naive to expect different treatment.

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Capeesh, if Shetland became a nation, whether fully independent or under BOT status (a nation within a kingdom) then it would be, by definition, overseas. Just because we share a continental shelf with the UK does not mean they own us. The Falkland Islands are on the same continental shelf as Argentina yet the UK is still adamant that they have the right to remain part of the UK as a BOT. 

 

Our plans are bound to ruffle a few feathers but is there any independence campaign in history that hasn't?

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In my opinion going down the route of only allowing "native" Shetlanders to have a vote is a dangerous one. Where is the cut off point? Do I have to be able to trace my lineage all the way back to the Picts or do I just have to be born here? Who decides who gets to vote and who doesn't? We do not want to be seen as xenophobic Shetland Nationalists. 

 

There would HAVE to be a cut off point (several(?)).  Where it/they get placed would be one of the critical points in so much as those deemed eligible(?) to vote should also be able to demonstrate some kind of commitment to the Islands,  For example, a minimum period of residency.. 

Would you, for instance, allocate a vote to someone who has "non British" nationality, has just come off the boat or, is working here on a temporary contract?

Not very PC of me but, these people could have a serious impact on any vote whilst none of them could be considered to have demonstrated any kind of real commitment.

 

Myself, I am not a "native born" Shetlander but, I have been here more than 30 years and, no surprise, married a local and consider myself a "stakeholder".

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In my opinion going down the route of only allowing "native" Shetlanders to have a vote is a dangerous one. Where is the cut off point? Do I have to be able to trace my lineage all the way back to the Picts or do I just have to be born here? Who decides who gets to vote and who doesn't? We do not want to be seen as xenophobic Shetland Nationalists. 

 

There would HAVE to be a cut off point (several(?)).  Where it/they get placed would be one of the critical points in so much as those deemed eligible(?) to vote should also be able to demonstrate some kind of commitment to the Islands,  For example, a minimum period of residency.. 

Would you, for instance, allocate a vote to someone who has "non British" nationality, has just come off the boat or, is working here on a temporary contract?

Not very PC of me but, these people could have a serious impact on any vote whilst none of them could be considered to have demonstrated any kind of real commitment.

 

Myself, I am not a "native born" Shetlander but, I have been here more than 30 years and, no surprise, married a local and consider myself a "stakeholder".

 

I see your meaning now Colin, apologies. There would have to be a cut off point yes. I can't speak for the wider group but I would imagine something along the lines of a minimum period of residency or marriage to an eligible person would get you the vote. There may be some provision in for people who were born and grew up here but recently left for study/work/family reasons as well I am not sure. It would all have to be carefully considered. 

 

People like yourself obviously would have the vote where as someone straight off the boat or on a temporary contract would not. 

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please examine closer the Falklands health service its not public. in fact look at the Manx and channel isles health service its all private and quite expensive. re oil a condition must be set for it to be pumped here. in fact why not refine it ourselves. fishing why do we just export the raw product lets do the processing and sell the product with an added value. lets be a vat free zone. we could supply bonded warehousing. we cant be dependent on one industry. just imagine if we were independent and we lost 250 jobs over night. if oil becomes cheap reduce production until prices improve. re nationality if you say choose say a residency of  2 or 5 years then apply the same rule to folks off island. if your away for more than a set period you lose your say. you will be required to return and for fill the residency requirement.  you cant use born here verses none natives it does not work. in fact thanks to my wifes mum living in the isle of man for 5 years  70 odd years back we can reside there. education we could expand our college to a uni and import overseas students. will it happen of course it wont but a nice idea.

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please examine closer the Falklands health service its not public. in fact look at the Manx and channel isles health service its all private and quite expensive. re oil a condition must be set for it to be pumped here. in fact why not refine it ourselves. fishing why do we just export the raw product lets do the processing and sell the product with an added value. lets be a vat free zone. we could supply bonded warehousing. we cant be dependent on one industry. just imagine if we were independent and we lost 250 jobs over night. if oil becomes cheap reduce production until prices improve. re nationality if you say choose say a residency of  2 or 5 years then apply the same rule to folks off island. if your away for more than a set period you lose your say. you will be required to return and for fill the residency requirement.  you cant use born here verses none natives it does not work. in fact thanks to my wifes mum living in the isle of man for 5 years  70 odd years back we can reside there. education we could expand our college to a uni and import overseas students. will it happen of course it wont but a nice idea.

 

Lots of ideas there Paulb which is what we want, with autonomy we really can build a better Shetland. Healthcare is expensive however it is paid for, theoretically a Shetland government could contract out its healthcare to a private operator, it would be in their interest to provide a good service or they would lose the contract. I have many colleagues who use BUPA healthcare and they say it is miles better than the NHS. All options worth exploring. 

 

 

 

silly question what happens when the oil and gas runs out??

it will eventually.

 

We'll be exporting so much electric from windmills, we'll have so much money coming in we'll not know what to do with it. :razz:

 

Seriously though, as Whalsa says, fish, in all its different guises is, has always been, and must remain the backbone of a sustainable local economy. Outside of that, there's no end of other income opportinities to be explored, you just need to to take a quick look round the world and you see, tax haven, "booze cruise" destination, gambling ('Vegas of the north' sounds as good to me as 'Venice of the north'), flags of convenience for shipping, etc etc. Not saying all, or even any of those would be suited to Shetland, but all certainly worth serious consideration.

 

 

Again more possibilities. With full fiscal autonomy we could set our own corporation tax levels to attract foreign companies here to perform any number of industries. Tourism could also benefit. When the oil runs out Shetland will still remain in a key strategic position for shipping and marine activity. There is really no reason why this could not be a lasting success if done properly. 

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I agree with all that is being said here and Im all for communities having autonomy. But think past fish and oil as incomes and way past the NHS being the big expenditure. I will list some that spring to mind.

Police

Prison

Immigration

Benefits

Health and Safety Exec

Civil Service

Fire Service

Some sort of Naval/Fishing patrol

Treasury

Banking system

that’s just off the top of my head

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I agree with all that is being said here and Im all for communities having autonomy. But think past fish and oil as incomes and way past the NHS being the big expenditure. I will list some that spring to mind.

Police

Prison

Immigration

Benefits

Health and Safety Exec

Civil Service

Fire Service

Some sort of Naval/Fishing patrol

Treasury

Banking system

that’s just off the top of my head

Yes Brian all things that will have to be considered, most if not all have been discussed within the group already. No-one is saying this will be easy but if the Faroese (among others) can manage then there is no reason why we can't. 

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