Self-sustaining Shetland

[George.]

if we are British we are subjects of the queen. our view of it does not matter we are subjects. if we want independence then we are no longer British. as far as i remember our overseas territories residents dont have the right to live in the uk. do we really want to need a passport to visit our families south. at the moment i dont see a decent shetland party that could make it  happen. it may sound nice having a council made of independents but it wont result in a movement that will push for extra powers. do we even want the caliber of politician we have to control  our lives. a bit worried if a ponced up council was responsible for our defense. 

 

I have never been British in my life. I'm Scottish by birth and Shetlandic by root, and by the fact that I've lived here for the last sixteen years. Shetland isn't British, it's part of Scotland. James III of Scotland took pawn of Shetland in 1469 and that's as close to Britain as it's ever got.

 

You also talk of a "Council", who and what have they got to do with Shetland becoming autonomous, and at what point would they be legally entertained regarding Shetlands defence. Perhaps you could tell me just what they have to do with our defence at present?

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

I regard having councillors as believing in Wir Shetland's aims as showing that there is a mandate for greater autonomy.  Wir Shetland is not a political party and there's nothing to stop anyone standing from stating they support Wir Shetland's goal.  Then it could go to a full referendum of the Shetland people as to whether or not they wanted to be a crown dependency or be totally independent.  There is no reason why negotiations couldn't take place and simply use local election as a means to an end but in the meantime follow the existing legislation made by Scotland, UK law and EU directives.  I'm not saying that a souped up SIC would end up being a national government, but isn't it also within the UN that if the Shetland people did decide they wanted total independence that they have to show they already have a government or are capable of having one?

 

Right now, isn't it a case of that we're stuck by what Scottish law dictates and also EU law?  How does Shetland get greater autonomy under the current set-up?  I don't see the present political set-up as working in Shetland's best interests.  I think a lot depends upon what happens with the EU referendum and I think the outcome of that will influence people because on the one hand, you've got two years of negotiating the UK's withdrawal but with Sturgeon saying that Scotland would want to remain and take steps to stay in the EU (didn't she or am I wrong on that?) or if the UK stays in the EU we continue with being dictated to.

 

And if I remember correctly, didn't some bod in the House of Lords state that if people said no to independence for Scotland that independence/greater autonomy for the isles should be looked at?  I can't remember the Lord's exact words.

 

Treason?  Tell that to the Isle of Man residents then. 

[Who Knows]

Yes, the United Nations recognises the right of people to claim the right for self determination when this is the clearly expressed free will of the people.

 

http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

 

Democratic referendum following an open transparent discussion would be the best way to clearly state that claim of right.

 

Currently unclear how Wir Shetland aim to prove there is a significant democratic support to hold such a referendum. The current election would have given Wir Shetland a platform to inform the Shetland electorate of what was being proposed and the opertunity discuss this via a democratic process including hustings what is the best local governance model for the island.

[whalsa]

Yes, the United Nations recognises the right of people to claim the right for self determination when this is the clearly expressed free will of the people.

 

http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml

 

Democratic referendum following an open transparent discussion would be the best way to clearly state that claim of right.

 

Currently unclear how Wir Shetland aim to prove there is a significant democratic support to hold such a referendum. The current election would have given Wir Shetland a platform to inform the Shetland electorate of what was being proposed and the opertunity discuss this via a democratic process including hustings what is the best local governance model for the island.

Exactly Who Knows. Refreshing to see someone else recognise our rights instead of trying to find reasons why we couldn't assert ourselves. 

 

Since Wir Shetland is a new organisation and is just gathering support and we are not registered as a political party we were unable to stand a candidate for this election. However the democratic discussion and referendum you speak of is not dependent on said election. If we can get popular support and/or enough SIC councillors on board then this process can begin with or without our MSP.

 

If you are at all interested you should sign up and help us achieve these goals.

[mikeyboy]

 

if we are British we are subjects of the queen. our view of it does not matter we are subjects. if we want independence then we are no longer British. as far as i remember our overseas territories residents dont have the right to live in the uk. do we really want to need a passport to visit our families south. at the moment i dont see a decent shetland party that could make it  happen. it may sound nice having a council made of independents but it wont result in a movement that will push for extra powers. do we even want the caliber of politician we have to control  our lives. a bit worried if a ponced up council was responsible for our defense. 

 

I have never been British in my life. I'm Scottish by birth and Shetlandic by root, and by the fact that I've lived here for the last sixteen years. Shetland isn't British, it's part of Scotland. James III of Scotland took pawn of Shetland in 1469 and that's as close to Britain as it's ever got.

 

You also talk of a "Council", who and what have they got to do with Shetland becoming autonomous, and at what point would they be legally entertained regarding Shetlands defence. Perhaps you could tell me just what they have to do with our defence at present?

 

He said a council not the council.

[whalsa]

^^^ Can be taken either way, "a ponced up council" could mean the current council "ponced up" (not sure what that means exactly) or an entirely new council as you say. 

I would stress the point that it wouldn't be the SIC in it's current form which would run a self governing Shetland. There would be an entirely new system of governance established and elections held. 

[paulb]

but its the same people. those proven to be completely incapable of managing any project. were are these future leaders. 

[Ghostrider]

^ It'll only be the same people if nobody better stands and/or the electorate chooses to vote in incompetents.

 

Much of the life of a Councillor these days is a Mickey Mouse job which pays peanuts, hence you get Goofy applying for the posts more often than not, and the smart people who do try to become involved as often as not get entirely scunnered with having to try and make any headway surrounded by Goofy clones and pack it in. The SIC can make a total hash of everything, and life still goes on, not so when you're running a country. If you make a hash of that, not only does the country sink, so does you and yours, and everyone else with you. Such high stakes tends to bring out the better folk, and make those participating take the whole thing far more seriously than happens when all you're doing is tinkering with what the Government or your own hired help tells you to do.

 

Many other island nations, some of lesser populations than Shetland manage to put together a Government composed of residents which appears to govern them quite successfully. From you comments you appear to be suggesting, in their shortest form, that "Shetland residents are too dumb and stupid to govern themselves"?

[whalsa]

 

Many other island nations, some of lesser populations than Shetland manage to put together a Government composed of residents which appears to govern them quite successfully. From you comments you appear to be suggesting, in their shortest form, that "Shetland residents are too dumb and stupid to govern themselves"?

I have gotten the impression people are suggesting this before and I always find it both strange and disappointing. Why have such little faith in your own people? There are many capable people in Shetland, why anyone would suggest otherwise is beyond me. 

[JGHR]

I have gotten the impression people are suggesting this before and I always find it both strange and disappointing. Why have such little faith in your own people? There are many capable people in Shetland, why anyone would suggest otherwise is beyond me.

There is little faith in the Wir Shetland group, I suspect, because of the hysterical, irrational, ill informed and downright nasty ranting of the vocal few on this and other forums. No amount of "I don't speak for Wir Shetland" or "My views are my own" disclaimers is going to change the impression that this is the Wir Shetland MO. The Wir Shetland brand is already trashed by association and I fear that it may well be beyond salvage. If Wir Shetland is to have any semblance of credibility they need to very quickly disassociate themselves from those behaviours and start putting forward, and engaging in, sensible and intelligent debate. Until they do that the suggestion that "Shetland residents are too dumb and stupid to govern themselves" is certainly understandable.

[paulb]

to correct an error the isle of man has never been part of the uk. it was owned until the late 18th century by the Stanley family. the crown bought it. the queen owns it not as part of the uk. my mum in law was born there. she has to pop over to it to renew her passport. the manxs parliament is the oldest in the world. but even they are quite capable of messing up quite impressively. the channel isles are similar never been part of the uk. we are. look at the mess of the former Yugoslav state when it falls apart in an uncontrolled manner. if the Scottish people want independence fine. if Shetland wants it fine. if yell wants it also fine. but it must be the desire of the whole population not some small group of mix and matched anti snp people. a real popular movement would be needed wir Shetland simply is not it. if done properly a country can break up in a civil manner as in Czechoslovakia. 

[whalsa]

 

I have gotten the impression people are suggesting this before and I always find it both strange and disappointing. Why have such little faith in your own people? There are many capable people in Shetland, why anyone would suggest otherwise is beyond me.

There is little faith in the Wir Shetland group, I suspect, because of the hysterical, irrational, ill informed and downright nasty ranting of the vocal few on this and other forums. No amount of "I don't speak for Wir Shetland" or "My views are my own" disclaimers is going to change the impression that this is the Wir Shetland MO. The Wir Shetland brand is already trashed by association and I fear that it may well be beyond salvage. If Wir Shetland is to have any semblance of credibility they need to very quickly disassociate themselves from those behaviours and start putting forward, and engaging in, sensible and intelligent debate. Until they do that the suggestion that "Shetland residents are too dumb and stupid to govern themselves" is certainly understandable.

 

I actually thought the debate going on here has been fairly civil? Certainly compared to other local media sites. I always try to keep things reasonable and respectful. The bickering and nastiness is certainly not one way but I have said many times that it is detracting from the campaign.

 

When our members say "I don't speak for Wir Shetland" etc then that is correct, they don't. We are not about to start telling members what they can and cannot say for themselves. However we do control the information/statements the Committee release on behalf of the group and if the impression you speak of is prevalent then we will have to change something to get debate back on to the real issues. 

[Ghostrider]

There is little faith in the Wir Shetland group, I suspect, because of the hysterical, irrational, ill informed and downright nasty ranting of the vocal few on this and other forums. No amount of "I don't speak for Wir Shetland" or "My views are my own" disclaimers is going to change the impression that this is the Wir Shetland MO. The Wir Shetland brand is already trashed by association and I fear that it may well be beyond salvage. If Wir Shetland is to have any semblance of credibility they need to very quickly disassociate themselves from those behaviours and start putting forward, and engaging in, sensible and intelligent debate. Until they do that the suggestion that "Shetland residents are too dumb and stupid to govern themselves" is certainly understandable.

 

Thats an opinion, which you're entitled to, and there's nothing to be gained by bickering over it. You'll either become more entrenched, remain the same, or change you mind in your own time for your own reason9s) as time passes and events occur (or don't). Personally I don't share it, as I've also heard other folk express the opinion that WS won't succeed as it is not vocal and radical enough. The overall conclusion I therefor reach is that as WS seems to be attracting criticism from both extremes, they must be somewhere in the centre, and hopefully on a track that is most likely to please most of the people most of the time, which is the most any organisation can hope to do.

 

As for "hysterical" and "ill-informed", from where i'm sitting, the most of that seems to be originating from WS critics, but that's just my opinion.

[whalsa]

to correct an error the isle of man has never been part of the uk. it was owned until the late 18th century by the Stanley family. the crown bought it. the queen owns it not as part of the uk. my mum in law was born there. she has to pop over to it to renew her passport. the manxs parliament is the oldest in the world. but even they are quite capable of messing up quite impressively. the channel isles are similar never been part of the uk. we are. look at the mess of the former Yugoslav state when it falls apart in an uncontrolled manner. if the Scottish people want independence fine. if Shetland wants it fine. if yell wants it also fine. but it must be the desire of the whole population not some small group of mix and matched anti snp people. a real popular movement would be needed wir Shetland simply is not it. if done properly a country can break up in a civil manner as in Czechoslovakia. 

To use a tired old adage, "Rome wasn't built in a day". To change Shetland's status to self governing territory of some description does require popular support but not of "the whole population", it must be democratically voted through by a majority. Comparing the idea of an autonomous Shetland to the break up of Yugoslavia is ridiculous IMO, that was a completely different situation and no one here is about to pick up arms to start an insurrection or genocide! 

 

Wir Shetland at 400 members may not qualify as "a popular movement" yet but in terms of numbers it is a damned good start. You can try to pigeon hole our membership in to some political camp if you so please but I know for a fact that the group is made up of a mixture of people all over the political spectrum, including those that rarely vote or have never voted. Wanting what is best for Shetland is the common thread. 

[Ghostrider]

to correct an error the isle of man has never been part of the uk. it was owned until the late 18th century by the Stanley family. the crown bought it. the queen owns it not as part of the uk. my mum in law was born there. she has to pop over to it to renew her passport. the manxs parliament is the oldest in the world. but even they are quite capable of messing up quite impressively. the channel isles are similar never been part of the uk. we are. look at the mess of the former Yugoslav state when it falls apart in an uncontrolled manner. if the Scottish people want independence fine. if Shetland wants it fine. if yell wants it also fine. but it must be the desire of the whole population not some small group of mix and matched anti snp people. a real popular movement would be needed wir Shetland simply is not it. if done properly a country can break up in a civil manner as in Czechoslovakia. 

 

What's your point? Yes, Shetland is part of the UK at the moment, so what? Just because something is so right now, doesn't automatically translate to it always having to be so. Shetland wasn't part of the UK 550 years ago, and whatever thoretical hierarchical arrangement is constructed by humans can be as quickly and easily be deconstructed by them. Ireland used to be part of the UK, it isn't any more....

 

Who is talking about Shetland breaking from the UK in an "uncontrolled manner", I've not heard it mentioned by anyone else before now, let alone suggested. All discussion material that's come my way this far has in fact been the opposite, with any changes to be conducted in a very negotiated, planned, structured and orderly fashion.

 

Every majority starts from a small nucleus, WS hopes to be that nucleus which caused that majority to grow. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, only time will tell, but WS has repetedly said, and continues to say that nothing will, or can change from the status quo without a democratically achieved mandate for it.