Self-sustaining Shetland

[Who Knows]

with due respect I disagree about Wir Shetland not standing a candidate at these election.

 

Firstly to get a referendum you need to prove there is a democratic mandate in Shetland wishing greater autonomy. The only way to do this is through the ballot box.

 

If you believe the hype the re-election of the SNP at holyrood is inevitable, therefore making this election about what is best for Shetland future was an open door.

 

I believe from the media WS have over 400 members so knocking doors and talking to their neighbours about WS message should not be a problem. That costs WS absolutely nothing. The conventional parties do not probably have 400 member between the four of them.

 

You get a free mail shot, you got the two hustings one of which is on the radio, and the local media would have to report press and stories issued by the candidate generate more pubility for the cause. Further as the seat is a marginal the unique addition that a WS candidate standing may of generated publicity outside Shetland and featured on a TV news report as something different.

 

Crowd funding and donations from the public at large is how the referendum campaign was mostly funded in 2014 so if WS do represent people's views then they would donate to the cause to help fund the campaign. If you want something badly enough you find ways to get it done.

 

WS may not have won the seat but they would have had a platform to inform us all about exactly what WS sees the future and a base from which to grow.

[Ghostrider]

^ Gonna have to agree to disagree with you on some of that. its all very well talking about trying to put a WS MSP in to Holyrood to "prove" a democratic mandate, but its not as simple as that. Folk expect whoever they put in to Holyrood to work on their behalf to deal with and get them the best deal with present issues more than longer term ones. and while it wouldn't be impossible, it would be a difficult juggling act to both adequately represent current interests within the present system while at the same time working towards demolishing that very same system. Quite apart from the fact that a WS MSP would be highly likely to find all or virtually all of their fellow MSPs uncoopertive if not outright hostile towards them, and the fact that unless to hold up as "proof" of  mandate, getting in to Holyrood is a road to nowhere, Holyrood does not possess the powers to grant what WS wants, and Westminster would find it all to easy to brush aside and/or ignore the "mandate" a WS MSP would provide, should it suit them to do that.

 

Personally I'd rather see a more structured, comprehensive and robust approach. Look at getting as much WS support in place in the Town Hall in next years elections, if a majority can be achieved there, then move on to holding a referendum, and if a majority is replicated again there, start lobbying Westminster in earnest, and or attempting to get a WS MP put in there.

 

Getting an MSP in to Holyrood might well prove a point, I'm not going to argue with that, but its a pretty weak and fickle victory, they could as quickly lose their seat at the next election for any number or irrelevant reasons, and WS would be left with little of worth to go forward with. If you have support and representation within every tier of the system that is relevant to changing the contentious issues, one tier can fall over and it causes little by way of a problem as the other tiers close in to fill the gap, not so when you only have one person in one tier or bust.

 

WS no doubt could have fielded a candidate if only practical/physical issues were all that mattered, but they're not, you need to identify the person best suited for the job, you need them to be agreeable to take it on, and then you need to research and plan a campaign. Those are the bits that time was against WS as far as I'm aware, hence the decision on this occasion that supporting an external candidate who was sympathetic to WS views was the best compromise option.

[Capeesh]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...The problem with the SNP is at both party and local candidate level are the only ones who have out and out dismissed the idea of increased local control for Shetland, which is quite ironic really, and what I would choose to term hypocrisy...

Don't let facts get in the way of an epic SNP Bad rant.

Here's a few quotes found in a few minutes on google...

"...I look forward to Wir Shetland flourishing as a forum that brings together everyone interested in arguing a case that Shetland would be enhanced by having more political autonomy...."

Danus Skene SNP candidate.

"...The Wir Shetland initiative is greatly to be welcomed. This is the right time to press Shetland’s interest as the national governance debate evolves..."

Danus Skene SNP candidate.

"We have previously committed to looking at devolving more autonomy to our islands and decentralising decision-making to those who live and work in these unique parts of Scotland. We want to work to make our islands stronger and let them flourish."

Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland and SNP leader.

"We want to empower island communities."

Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland and SNP leader.

^ You can come with as many "politic speak" quotes as you like as you like, as not one of them proves one damn thing...

It proves, beyond doubt that this is untrue...

"...The problem with the SNP is at both party and local candidate level are the only ones who have out and out dismissed the idea of increased local control for Shetland..."

They sound very open and supportive of the idea of increased local control for Shetland.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Capeesh

[whalsa]

^^^ Those are all just words though Capeesh, you have to look at what they have actually done. I don't want to be dragged in to a SNP slagging match but it is true that they have been a centralist Government since coming to power. Further to that they have treated Shetland unfairly in several key areas of funding such as ferry provision and education.

As for the election I agree with everything Ghostrider has said, we simply did not have the time or the resources to spend on fielding a candidate. The power to grant us what we want still lies in Westminster so going hell for leather to get a WS MSP when we were not ready would have done more harm than good IMHO. 

[Ghostrider]

They sound very open and supportive of the idea of increased local control for Shetland.

 

Yes, "sound", and that is the crux of the problem. A fart can "sound" like taking a dump, but more often than not it isn't. "Sound", be it the SNP's or someone's ass or whatever else behind it, is all noise, and no substance.

 

At least as long ago as 2012 in the run up to the Scottish Independence referendum the SNP Scottish Government were being pressed on the issue of self-determination for Shetland. Their "openess" and "support" has been of such value over the interveneing four years that the issue is still stuck at the starting blocks as there's no evidence of tangible progress as yet. With that kind of "openess" and "support", who needs hinderance. We're out of patience with them and tired of waiting for them to decide when they're going to produce the fart that has the dump with it.

 

If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

[Who Knows]

Rewriting history to support an argument that is weak does no-one any favours.

 

Scotland got its independence referendum because the SNP won the 2011 Holyrood election with an overall majority. Westminister recognised the democratic mandate given to the SNP and agreed via the Edinburgh agreement to the terms of that referendum.

 

The predesent has this been established at Westminister and if the SNP are reelected to Govern Scotland they would have to recognise the mandate given to the duly elected MSP for Shetland. There is no evidence only supposition to the statement that a WS MSP will not be welcomed and respected at Holyrood.

 

Where there is a will there is always away. If something is worthwhile then investing time in achieving that is never a waste. Every journey needs to start with one small tentative step and the world would look remarkably different if those renowned figures from history who stood up to the establishment had not done so.

 

In a democracy were the electorate truely hold their elected representatives to account there will never be a guarantee you are re-elected however the sitting candidate does statistically on past evidence hold a slight advantage.

 

Please remember the Westminister seat takes includes Orkney so would be harder for WS to win.

 

WS have 400 members so no doubt it is conceivable one of them could have the ability and skills to be a fully functioning constituency MSP. The electorate will expect whoever is elected to forfull the full job description and support both constituents who voted for them and those who did not.

 

The problem may appear to be WS is actually not clear upon what powers it wants for Shetland or at least what it will do with these powers if granted and thus unclear upon what to seek a mandate from the electorate?

 

Not sure what WS gains from taking sides on Lib dem / SNP fight when neither will form part of an independent Shetland future. Only sure think is that WS will need to talk to whoever governs Scotland and whoever controls power at Westminister. Unlikely to be the Lib Dems given their current representation at both parliaments and poll ratings.

[Capeesh]

^^^ Those are all just words though Capeesh, you have to look at what they have actually done. I don't want to be dragged in to a SNP slagging match but....

 

"but...." I'll carry on anyway.

You would say that, your group's actively campaigning against the SNP in an election.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Capeesh

[whalsa]

^^^ Capeesh I believe in credit where credit is due and the same for criticism. I will criticise any party who I believe is doing Shetland a disservice and it is hard to argue the SNP have not done that. I have made my thoughts on the matter clear so will leave it at that.
 

Scotland got its independence referendum because the SNP won the 2011 Holyrood election with an overall majority. Westminister recognised the democratic mandate given to the SNP and agreed via the Edinburgh agreement to the terms of that referendum.

That is why we need to have an overall majority in the SIC, so that Westminster will recognise the same democratic mandate you speak of here. 

As for us being "not clear upon what powers it wants for Shetland" that is nonsense. We want self governance, i.e. autonomy. Full fiscal control, our own constitution, laws and parliament. Basically the same powers as many other self governing island groups enjoy. 

[Who Knows]

I think I am clear what you want whalsa but googling to find a website rather than a Facebook site I found Wir Shetland website

 

https://wirshetland.org/wp/

 

Now that appears to be slightly different wanting British Overseas Terrority status.

 

The website lack details and policies about WS vision is for an independent Shetland.

 

I presume all the details will be published by the Spring of 2017 so that the vision and detail of that can be vigorously debated and discussed prior to the SIC elections?

 

For the avoidance of doubt I am not anti WS I want to understand the "why, what and how" of the future before I can decide if the benefits of the argument are made just as we all had to do back in September 2014. The standards bar for level of information for major change have been set.

[whalsa]

I think I am clear what you want whalsa but googling to find a website rather than a Facebook site I found Wir Shetland website

 

https://wirshetland.org/wp/

 

Now that appears to be slightly different wanting British Overseas Terrority status.

 

The website lack details and policies about WS vision is for an independent Shetland.

 

I presume all the details will be published by the Spring of 2017 so that the vision and detail of that can be vigorously debated and discussed prior to the SIC elections?

 

For the avoidance of doubt I am not anti WS I want to understand the "why, what and how" of the future before I can decide if the benefits of the argument are made just as we all had to do back in September 2014. The standards bar for level of information for major change have been set.

I think you will find the website has us wanting British Overseas Territory OR SIMILAR, status. Which is our current preferred route to self governance. 

 

Demanding details of how an autonomous Shetland would be run prior to the SIC elections is not the same as the demand for details before the 2014 Independence Referendum... the equivalent would be details provided before a similar referendum in Shetland? 

 

Debate of details and possible policies are welcome but as Wir Shetland are not currently a political party we cannot presume to know what policies an autonomous Shetland Government would pursue. 

 

We are not going to achieve a mandate for a referendum overnight, there will be plenty of time for the case for pursuing this to be laid out in detail. 

 

The key thing for me here is Shetlanders would have the freedom to enact any laws or policies which we saw fit, we could tailor make a constitution and a system for the particular needs of our islands. We would also be free to change anything which wasn't working without the interference from external tiers of Government. 

[Capeesh]

^^^ Capeesh I believe in credit where credit is due and the same for criticism. I will criticise any party who I believe is doing Shetland a disservice and it is hard to argue the SNP have not done that. I have made my thoughts on the matter clear so will leave it at that.

Crystal clear thanks, I don't think people need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that the leadership of WS are fundamentally anti SNP though, they just need to have a glance at the letters/comments/actions coming from them.

If I was in the market for anti SNP/SNP Bad hysteria, WS would probably be my first port of call.

I can think of a few Shetlanders off the top of my head who might disagree with the sentiment that the Scottish government has done them a disservice, a few examples might be...

Any Shetlander who enjoys or has children/relatives/friends who enjoy free university education at World class Scottish universities (no £9k a year charges for them despite the Tory/LibDem coalition government in London).

Any Shetlander who has had or had family/friends who've had to take out a prescription and not paid a penny. (We don't tax illness in Shetland)

Any Shetlander who hasn't had to suffer the bedroom tax.

Any Shetlander who runs a small business and enjoyed rate relief.

These are policies which, of the top of my head, have benefitted me and my family as Shetlanders, I'm sure there are more.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Capeesh

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

 

^^^ Capeesh I believe in credit where credit is due and the same for criticism. I will criticise any party who I believe is doing Shetland a disservice and it is hard to argue the SNP have not done that. I have made my thoughts on the matter clear so will leave it at that.

Crystal clear thanks, I don't think people need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that the leadership of WS are fundamentally anti SNP though, they just need to have a glance at the letters/comments/actions coming from them.

If I was in the market for anti SNP/SNP Bad hysteria, WS would probably be my first port of call.

I can think of a few Shetlanders off the top of my head who might disagree with the sentiment that the Scottish government has done them a disservice, a few examples might be...

Any Shetlander who enjoys or has children/relatives/friends who enjoy free university education at World class Scottish universities (no £9k a year charges for them despite the Tory/LibDem coalition government in London).

Any Shetlander who has had or had family/friends who've had to take out a prescription and not paid a penny. (We don't tax illness in Shetland)

Any Shetlander who hasn't had to suffer the bedroom tax.

Any Shetlander who runs a small business and enjoyed rate relief.

These are policies which, of the top of my head, have benefitted me and my family as Shetlanders, I'm sure there are more.

 

 

We pay for prescriptions via National Insurance contributions.  Doctors get paid per prescription they write out.  We pay for it by not having as much choice as people in England.  We pay for it by not having as many rights as those within the NHS (the NHS is a different organisation to the health service in Scotland).

 

I RUN a small business.  I don't get rate relief.  What I do, however, get, is the Scottish Government telling me that I should be paying for someone to collect my rubbish as it cannot go in with domestic rubbish.  I had to put forward my case to be exempt.

 

I also have to pay just like those presently in England a hefty price on my electricity bills for the 'green tax'.

 

If you're disabled, you have different legislation to that in England & Wales, and have them looking at the disability instead of the person when looking at the criteria re vulnerable adults - some charities have been outspoken and criticise this.  What does the Scottish Government do?  NOTHING.

 

The crofters who have had to suffer the abysmal administration.  The crofters who see land which has been in their families for generation, which the SNP wants taken off them so that all land is under state control.

 

And you want me to say I've benefited from them?  Pig.flying.by.window.

 

Edit:  Civil partnerships.  Westminster has extended it so that those people (men/women as opposed to just same sex couples) who don't want to marry can apply for a civil partnership instead - Holyrood aren't extending it.  Why not?  There's probably more too, and more to come once Scotland starts collecting tax ...

Edited April 23, 2016 by Suffererof1crankymofo

[Capeesh]

^^^You can say/vote/think/do what you want but it is a fact that myself and my family in Shetland and elsewhere in Scotland have benefited from the policy choices the Scottish government have made.

[paulb]

if scotland is so bad why stay. face it scotland is never going to satisfy your desire to convert it to outer london. you run a business why do you think they would know your not producing non domestic waste. why would you get rate relief as you dont pay commercial rates. im really pleased that our health service does not makes us pay for being sick £8.20 soon to raise by 20% i have 10 diffrent meds per month. my daughter is on 5  so in england each month i would be paying £150 to stay alive. sorry England is out of step not scotland. at the moment 3000 learning disabled/autistic kids and young adults are locked up in assessment units for years without a chance of proper care. England may have more current laws but they dont obey them. us

 

crofters are not about to lose our land. some absent crofting estates may lose out but so what.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

if scotland is so bad why stay. face it scotland is never going to satisfy your desire to convert it to outer london. you run a business why do you think they would know your not producing non domestic waste. why would you get rate relief as you dont pay commercial rates. im really pleased that our health service does not makes us pay for being sick £8.20 soon to raise by 20% i have 10 diffrent meds per month. my daughter is on 5  so in england each month i would be paying £150 to stay alive. sorry England is out of step not scotland. at the moment 3000 learning disabled/autistic kids and young adults are locked up in assessment units for years without a chance of proper care. England may have more current laws but they dont obey them. us

 

crofters are not about to lose our land. some absent crofting estates may lose out but so what.

 

 

"Any Shetlander who runs a small business" - not any then.  And paulb, are you seriously people should lie about their non-domestic waste?  Paper which can be recycled can't go in with your domestic waste if it has been generated by a business.

 

Prescription charges - you know full well that you can get a pre-paid certificate which reduces the cost significantly and that those on certain benefits and/or with certain health conditions get free prescriptions.

 

I'll skip the autism and judical system point out of courtesy.

 

"if scotland is so bad why stay"

 

By jove, I think the penny might have finally dropped.  If Shetland voted to leave, it would be those living here who would decide upon how the health service was shaped, which country healthcare was bought from or which country/ies to do a deal with to help bring more expertise here, a whole new legal system, education system and so forth.  The power to choose which is kept and which gets scrapped.  The people who live here, you know, getting the right and the power to decide FOR THEMSELVES.

 

It's not nonsense, it's do-able, and if the EU votes to leave Europe then what an ideal opportunity and put it to the people of Shetland to decide what they want, see if they wanted to go it totally alone, or be a BOT, or crown dependency, or just more powers locally.  It doesn't matter what Wir Shetland's stance is on various points because right now, they are not putting up candidates.  What does, however, to me matter is that people are given a choice and advised as to what is feasible and what can actually be done without any scaremongering.

 

Local control.  Local autonomy.  If it's good enough for Scotland, it should be good enough for Shetland.