EU

[whalsa]

Agree with what others have said about the EU having little to do with the lack of armed conflict in Western Europe. Modern democracies very rarely wage war against each other. After WW2 Western Europe was united against a common enemy in Soviet Russia. As has already been pointed out it was NATO (and the threat of nuclear annihilation) which prevented that conflict from descending into open war, nothing to do with the EU. 

If we leave the EU we will not have any less friends or any more enemies as far as I can see. 

[Ghostrider]

The way the EU is going right now its going to end in a civil war unless someone pulls their neck in, that someone at the moment being mostly old Merkel. She seems to think shes the President of the USofE, or something. Personally I'd feel more comfortable in an alliance with Putin right now, than being associated with that den of vipers in Brussels.

 

Who would we go to war with if we left the EU. Unless of course the EU invaded us to make us "toe their line". It wouldn't surprise me if they did. Norway and Iceland don't seem too bothered about their national security, so why would we have any more concerns as a stand alone nation? Apart from the EU itself, there is only one realistic potential aggressor, Putin, and lets face it, if he has designs on establishing an Atlantic coast base, Norway or Iceland would appeal far more to his designs than the UK.

[Roachmill]

Like many at the moment I am listening to TV,Radio and reading to the many views regarding whether to vote yes or no and totally confused.

 

And you're not alone on being totally confused! Every blow-hard that proclaims we should [stay!!!! | leave!!!!] doesn't help matters either. They are often the ones confusing things as anyone pushing a one-sided argument is only serving their own agenda (often under the guise of some bigger and greater good) and should be viewed with suspicion as to what they are after and why.

 

I won't pretend to understand all aspects and implications of staying or leaving; I'm not that bright. The vote is going to come down to a lot of folk sticking their fingers in the air so about the best I can do is look at both sides of the many arguments and base my decision on that. I'm having a hard enough time wondering exactly what the Tories are really after out of all this.

[Urabug]

Yeah! Roachmill,you are right depending on ones own circumstances employment and financial, will certainly have some influence on the way one is inclined to vote.

 

If one is a fisherman or crofter there would indeed be good reason to leave,but then again plenty of other professions will lean the other way.

 

I think party politics should be kept out of the discussion because many partys will come and go whether we remain in or out.

 

Nevertheless Nichola has surprised me,adviseing us to stay in .Did she not want independance not so long ago!.

 

Even if we leave it will take years of hard labour to remove all the stains from the Brussels bulls*** that will be left behind.  

 

Cameron will know a lot of things privy to him and hie colleagues that we do not,but strange that they cannot all agree on it. 

 

I would like to see better discussion not bogged down in politics,but in real EU facts.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Urabug

[George.]

I would like to see better discussion not bogged down in politics,but in real EU facts.

 

Real EU facts? I've only ever heard the bulls**t that they spew, the same sort of rubbish that David CaMoron comes out with. 

 

The sooner we're out, the better.

[Redrobbie99]

You have to hand it to the Germans soundly beaten in two world wars especially WW2 when Germany was devastated .Yet here they are top dog again and in full charge of the EU.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Redrobbie99

[Urabug]

Yes George thats your view but I want hear many more views ,so I'm better informed which way to vote.

 

I totally agree with free speech,but thankfully I can listen to some of the crap and not be swayed by it.

 

AS I said earlier its swings and roundabouts some will be better off out,others will be better off in.

 

It is getting the compromise right that suits the many not the few.

 

It's almost like convinceing us we should all join the Masons  .  

[Ghostrider]

Its probably much easier for those of us who remember pre-'73 to make our minds up. Knowing how the country was before we went in, having seen all the antics of the last forty odd year unfold, and looking at where we are now, its difficult to view it as anything but a no-brainer.

 

Yes, I know the world has moved on by forty odd year of "progress", but even so, I struggle to see what we've gained in that time by being in, or that we could be worse off now had we never gone in. It just beggars belief for me that it was the Tories who dragged us in, yet its been the Tories who've done all the fighting with Brussels while we've been in, but now again its the Tories who are saying we should stay in. I would love to know what their motivation was, has been, and is.

 

That said, the thing that pisses me off most is that the Government has taken a side - IMHO, for a referendum, any referendum, the Government should remain 100% impartial and restrict its role to disseminating verifiable relevant unbiased facts so that everybody can make an informed choice.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ghostrider

[Urabug]

Yes Ghostrider--1970s Cheap Ladas.rusty Datsuns, strike after strike, shipyards closeing ect ,ect ,ect are we any better of today .

 

The difference is we live in a global market now thanks to broadband. 

 

Do we really want to go back to import and export taxes on everything that comes in and goes out abroad.

 

Ma'be Amazon pays that for us ?

[Redrobbie99]

Greenland left the EU and seems to be doing just fine .http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alexsingleton/100065718/why-is-greenland-so-rich-these-days-it-said-goodbye-to-the-eu/

[Ghostrider]

^ To the best of my recollect, there were very, very few Datsuns and Ladas until after we'd been in the EEC for a few years. Strikes are another matter, and argubly largely down to the unelected (by most folk) hierachy within the UK Unions of the day, and shipyard closures part of the global shift in heavy industry manufacturing to Asia. It wasn't just us that went though that pain. The crisis of the mid-70s when the country almost ground to a halt from strikes, the resultant three day week and left us near bankrupt, was four years in to European rule, and its arguable whether Europe assisted in preventing that from being any worse than it really were, or if they were the cause of it all occuring in the first place.

 

As for imp/exp taxes, surely that would be down to Westminster to decide upon in a stand alone UK, and if they don't have a huge mofo cheque to sign for Brussels every year they're not going to have the need to raise s much tax then as now - Not that that in and of itself will necessrily stop them levying them, but if they do they'll have one less excuse to try and justify it to the electorate with.

 

It would be very interesting to see the current numbers for imp/exp that we are/aren't paying border duties on, just to see what exactly this so called "free market" is worth to us. As from what I see on the products knocking around for sale in the UK, not a lot of it is of EU origin, its ROW origin which we're paying dury on the same right now as if we were out of the EU.

[Redrobbie99]

How many other countries do they plan to join the EU ? .Ukraine and Turkey seem to be next with a combined population of around 120 million .David Cameron is particularly keen for Turkey to join .    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11283924/David-Cameron-I-still-want-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

Edited March 1, 2016 by Redrobbie99

[Capeesh]

I didn't hear David Cameron trying to renegotiate the Common Fisheries Policy when he was trying to hammer out a deal with the other EU member states, I bet it wasn't mentioned once.

 

Ted Heath and his Tory government in Westminster didn't give a toss about the fishing industry in 1972/1973 they saw it as expendable and used it as a bargaining chip to gain EEC entry.

 

80% of the UK fishing fleet was Scottish, they only had 23 seats in the whole of Scotland, only a few of them were coastal fishing communities, not much electoral damage to them, criminal negligence for the fishing communities they were meant to protect though.

 

I wonder what they'll exchange our fishing grounds for this time if we do exit the EU?

If they were willing to sell us out once whats to stop them selling us out again?

My money would be on some deal to protect their backers in the financial sector, I can't see them being happy losing the free trade they have with a market of 500 million people.

 

From what I can see the Tories that want us out of the EU are desperate to turn us into some kind of Chinese sweatshop, they can't stand the little protection we as workers get from being in the EU.

 

Among other laws that give us a measure of protection, they also want to withdraw from "The European Human Rights Act" imagine that, human beings who don't want their fellow human beings to have rights, it's absolutely insane.

 

I'll be voting to remain in the EU because at least they have some member states who aren't anywhere near as right wing as our government which is reflected in some EU laws, heaven help us if we're left to the mercy of this government with no protection.

 

Yes, the EU has major flaws but the member states that make up the EU aren't our enemies, they're our friends and allies.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Capeesh

[Ghostrider]

Yes, the EU has major flaws but the member states that make up the EU aren't our enemies, they're our friends and allies.

 

I'll believe that when I see any evidence of it happening.

 

Big difference between someone shaking your hand and assuring you they're your friend, and someone behaving as a friend should.

[Capeesh]

 

Yes, the EU has major flaws but the member states that make up the EU aren't our enemies, they're our friends and allies.

 

 

I'll believe that when I see any evidence of it happening.

 

Big difference between someone shaking your hand and assuring you they're your friend, and someone behaving as a friend should.

The EU has to work towards the mutual benefit of all its members because if it didn't nobody would want to be a part of it.