Emergency Services Reckless Driving

[Tomblands]

Tomblands,

 

you are missing the point. I think the same as you that most, if not all, would not do so. But it worries me that there appears to be such a rush to snipe and criticise and have a go without the facts. And before the North Star incident, I would not have believed anyone here would have acted in such a manner either, however it's kind of changed some of my views and set me to worry. In the face of an incident like that, can you honestly criticise me for having some form of worry about such a thing?

 

GP:(

 

It seems I did get the wrong end of the stick. I thought you were suggesting that some of the posters on this forum would be the ones using any incident involving what you mentioned as support for an arguement. which is why I said what I said.

[Marooned in Maywick]

 

There was shock, horror and anger expressed on this very forum when it was heard that folk had tried to stop the polis from saving a man from a serious assault - possibly even death - in Lerwick recently. Quite honestly, with the anti-polis statements expressed throughout a number of threads at any and every opportunity, it does not surprise me.

 

 

There's much of your post I'd take issue with but this bit is the most glaringly barmy.

How can expressions of shock, horror and anger aimed at those who were preventing the Police carrying out their much-maligned job be construed as 'anti-Polis'???

Please, explain.

[Ghostrider]

This accident was just that. An accident. When young boys crash their cars and kill each other in Shetland, I have never seen the same volume of threads queuing up to kick them? Whyever not? Could it be... that it's because they are one of your own, whereas the polis (with the exception of two officers here) are not? Surely not. Surely the fine folk of Shetland with their reputation and renown for warmth and hospitality to all would not think like that?

 

Then why? Is it because they are an authority and you resent that? Once again, surely not.

 

Answers would be helpful. Logical, courteous, reasonable answers that is not the standard "if you don't like it here, there's a fery and a plane, yadda, yadda, yadda..."

 

As many have said, and no-one has ever been able to refute, "all accidents are preventable".

 

Your comparison is not like for like, the Police, in Shetland at least, are perceived many, as presenting themselves as "perfect" and "infallible", whether that is by intent or by accident, I couldn't say, however everyone know it is total b/s, they are no different than anyone else, and are as liable to make silly mistakes and bad judgement calls as the rest of us jackasses. They preach about road safety religiously, and I don't think it's unreasonable for folk to expect them to practice what they preach if they expect folks to take them seriously, where this particular case is concerned, they do not seem to have heeded much of their own preachings, hence people see a large slice of hypocracy shining through. Add to that, the Police are our employees, and on our payroll, each and every one of us, and like any prudent employer we had a right and obigation to ensure our employees are doing their job properly and in an efficient, cost effective and productive manner. What occured at the top of the Sound Brae the other morning fails to meet those criteria in a lot of people eyes.

 

Your boyracer is not trying to force his dubious driving standards on to other drivers, nor is a boyracer being financed from the public purse, if he totals his car or cripples/kills himself it is his problem, the only effect to the rest of us his antics may have is who and what he may hit before he hits something hard enough to stop him. The risks of who or what gets hit by a cop car driven inappropriately are exactly the same as that of the boyracer, however with the cop we, the public also have to foot the bill for a replacement Panda, and tolerate a reduced Police service while he and the car he wrecked are in the process of being replaced.

 

If this accident was avoidable and the polis was committing an offence, he'll be done. I believe that, I have seen and heard it happening elsewhere in the Highlands & Islands.

 

I want to believe so, I would very much like to believe so, but I am far from convinced that it will....at least an "investigation" is in process, so we shall just have to see what comes out in the wash, won't we!

 

But all you saying, "they shouldn't be speeding, oh my goodness!" yes, you are right, they should not be speeding. Unless there is a good reason to do so. Do you want them obeying the Highway Code next time someone is breaking into your house, or your windows are being broken, or you or your family have been or are being assaulted? Oops, silly me. This is Shetland, that couldn't possibly happen here. Or so some folk seem to think..

 

Yes, we all know turd happens here, same as anyplace else, and sometimes the Police are needed, and I'm sure for them it's a messy thankless job on many occasions, but in the main those involved as victims appreciate their assistance and are grateful for it. But that is not the point here, the Police do not drive like a bat outta hell with blue light and siren going for each and every call, their response is generally measured to be appropriate to the nature of each individual incident.

 

Lets look at a few facts, "emergencies" of the nature they were responding to are called multiple times per year every year, and have been since North Sea Oil exploration commenced, not even once to my knowledge and best recollection has one of them devloped in to any sort of actual incident. That of course is not to say that the next one won't be the one that does, but it proves the ratio/probability of any one "emergency" call of this nature being anything other than a prudent percaution is extremely low. Even if it were to develop in to an actual incident, as has already been stated on this thread, the Police role is a minor one in it, purely supportive and secondary to the other emergency services involved, and during the later "clearing up". Bottom line, given the probability of this call becoming anything other than just one more call which went no further, and given the limited contribution a Police presence at any such incident were it to develop, can they really justify sirens, blue lights and travelling at high speeds in the middle of town "rush hour" traffic, young children on and near roads going to school, attempting to overtake on a blind crest, and even though it was at the top of a relatively long steep hill, with a relatively low power car, they still had enough speed on that clipping another car could result in them going thorugh at least 180 degrees, broadsiding across tar, hard shoulder and grass for multiple yards, and still have enough momentum to half roll? In many people's eyes that kind of response was grossly excessive considering the nature of the call. Incidents of housebreaking, vandalism and assault are usually ongoing, or have recently happened when the Police are called, it is only right the Police try to get there as quickly as possible, in this case any possible land incident was still 20 minutes in to the future, if one happened at all, and if it happened sooner it would have been at sea, in which case they'd have been sitting uselessly at the old side of the airport twiddling their thumbs.[/i]

[Willies_landy]

Yes, I agree with some of you that the police could have done this one better. I mean it doesn't even make a good picture.

 

One thing I would like to say is that I have always found the police in Shetland to be very helpful and polite.

 

In their defence I would like to mention something that I seen on Thursday morning......A police car with blue flashing lights was following a van along Lochside, the van seemed to stop in the middle of the road. I thought it was for the police to overtake. This was not the case because as the police car went to go around the van the van decided to pull to the left. This caused the police car to stop, avoiding an accident. The police was travelling within the speed limits but was forced to a stop because of some nitwit.

 

Is this not similar to what happend on the Sound Brae - were the police at fault?

[whodat]

Marooned in Maywick,

 

the posts you refer to are the excption not the rule. They arose not out of ourage at the polis not being allowed to do their job, but quite rightly, at the ones who tried to allow a man to continue to be beaten half to death. Readd back through the threads and you will see (hopefully) that the almost constant rule is, have a go at the polis.

 

I am NOT defending the polis, same as I would not defend the council in some critcisms or anyone else in any thread, UNLESS I WAS IN POSSESSION OF ALL THE FACTS. That is what my point is about, albeit (incredibly) long-winded. I hope that Tomblands eventually understood that, and that others will too.

 

I have been in an accident - a serious accident - involving a polis car on route to an emergency. It broke red lights and struck my vehicle, injuring me and my partner. Not in the Highlands or Islands, I should add. After an investigation, the driver of the polis car was convicted of careless driving. Despite a limp, I do not harbour angre or resentment. He was attempting to reach a shop where the keeper had been knifed and the person responsible was still within. It happens. But if they're wrong, they should be done. If not, they shouldn't. As young folk say, "End of" (in my opinion).

 

As to the car turningh broadside, etc, etc, as alleged, I am not a road accident expert, but if you go up there and take a look - close look - as I did, you can see the polis car went in a line after swerving to avoid then clipping the car. There was no 180 spin. The tracks are clear to see. Stop sniping, ALL OF YOU. Officer Dible's comments were - if he/she is polis - frankly inflammatory and incredibly insulting and condescending particularly regards the press. However, I cannot believe they are the official view, unless he is the Chief Constable, or Chief Inspector, hidijg behind a nom de plume?

 

It's easy to criticise, and such things perpetuate the "us and them" culture. I have heard polis talk about who's in "the job" and who's not. That doesn't help things either. We're none of us perfect, are we?

 

Try to get along with each other, BOTH sides. However I have tio say, almiost without exception (I can think of three in the last few years) the polis here are helpful and polite on the whole.

 

Move to Glasgow or London, that'll show you just how lucky we are, believe me!

 

GP

[Njugle]

In their defence I would like to mention something that I seen on Thursday morning.........

......... This caused the police car to stop, avoiding an accident. The police was travelling within the speed limits but was forced to a stop because of some nitwit.

 

Is this not similar to what happend on the Sound Brae - were the police at fault?

Erm, not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not but my answer would have to be : No it wasn't similar, because the in former incident here, the police managed to stop, in the latter they didn't, for whatever reason.

 

Out of interest. In the EFAD advanced driving course the driver is taught to assess, and trained to provide a narrative on, all the possible hazards arising, whilst driving at the maximum safe speed, theoretically within the law.

 

The narrative for the sound brae would sound something like, blind crest of hill, exercise caution, known junction over crest, vehicle ahead, where's he going, proximity to junction, decelarate or brake and re-assess.

 

Not overtake on the off-chance.

 

Let he who is without sin and all that, well i'm quite content to comment on this because i've done exactly the same thing while driving too fast over the crest of a hill( within the limits), toward a junction where people rarely stop to turn in, only in my case i skidded to halt, on a wet road, slightly damaged the front of my car and scratched the other guys bumper, losing all my no claims in the process. In my case i would say i was driving too fast , not paying enough attention and almost entirely to blame. Even though the guy i hit stopped very abruptly with no prior warning or indication. In my case it was human error and i admit it, we're all human at the end of the day.

[Ghostrider]

As to the car turningh broadside, etc, etc, as alleged, I am not a road accident expert, but if you go up there and take a look - close look - as I did, you can see the polis car went in a line after swerving to avoid then clipping the car. There was no 180 spin. The tracks are clear to see.

 

Excuse me!! I'm not professing to be any kind of expert either, but some things are glaringly obvious. Take a close look at this picture from the Shetland News site, as it shows certain facts more clearly than in those posted on this thread.

 

http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/pages/news%20stories/09_2006/Police%20accident%20Lerwick%2012Sept%202006.jpg

 

The Police car was travelling out of Lerwick, heading south on a call to Sumburgh Airport. The wreck in this picture, and on the pictures on this thread is at all times shown as heading north and in to Lerwick. Somewhere between the point of impact and coming to rest this car spun through at least 180 degrees to come to rest pointing in the opposite direction to which it was travelling when the impact occured. Unless of course you are suggesting the Police were travelling in reverse in the first place.

 

*If* as you state, the visible skid marks on the road are continious from point of impact to point of rest, then that suggests the car went through 180 at the moment of impact which would be highly likely in the circumstances, and proceeded to travel in a generally diagonally direction towards it's point of rest led by it's passenger side back corner. It is very very likely the initial point of impact on the Focus was near the front tip of the passengers side front wing, as the entire momentum of car is then being directed towards that point it becomes a pivot, resulting in, to one degree or another, depending on the energy contained in the forward motion of the car, the drivers side back corner to swing out and away from the impact point, and the car to rise in the air. Your speed does not have to be excessive for all four wheels to no longer be in contact with the road at that point, which allows an airborne spin without leaving the slightest skid mark.

 

Finally, notice all that grass trapped between tyres and rims on the insides of the two drivers side wheels, that can only get there in one way. That car at some point on that grass was travelling generally sideways towards it's passengers side forcing it in between tyre and rim as they travelled sideways. If you could see the outsides of both passenger side wheels you would almost certainly find grass etc similiarly jammed between tyre and rim. It may well be shorter and more deeply embedded, but it will be there, it's shorter because that being the leading side it was carrying far more of the cars weight which would have ripped much of it off again as the wheels etc passed over it, the opposing wheels would have been carrying next to no weight, hence they could easily drag it along intact.

[nautim]

 

In their defence I would like to mention something that I seen on Thursday morning......A police car with blue flashing lights was following a van along Lochside, the van seemed to stop in the middle of the road. I thought it was for the police to overtake. This was not the case because as the police car went to go around the van the van decided to pull to the left.

 

I think I must have met them after you - still following the van - out the south road. I was heading into lerwick, and slowed down in case they wanted to overtake the van, but another van was sitting in a busstop, which confused the whole issue.

 

You do wonder about what some people are doing when they drive - they certainly don't seem to be thinking about the driving...

[drew_peacock]

Just another point.

 

Why does the fire brigade have to attend? If a copter ditches in the sea what use are they?

 

Are you for real or are you looking for promotion

 

http://www.jedisparadise.co.uk/childrenstv/Top_Cat/Top%20Cat0030.jpg

[JustMe]

Just another point.

 

Why does the fire brigade have to attend? If a copter ditches in the sea what use are they?

 

A good enought question.......but not as it stands. Sure the fire brigade are not going to be a whole lot of use if any aircraft has ditched in the sea but I think a more relevant question has to be that of why airport emergencies are not left to the airport fire service to deal with. Presumably the fire service is considered competent enough to handle an inbound flight crashing on the runway without giving enough warning so that Lerwick fire crews could join in the critical first few minutes after a crash so why do they have to rush off to Sumburgh when there is a declared emergency.

 

The reason for my concern is that Lerwick is left with less cover than normal and the fire brigade officials might some day face the task of deciding which fire the remaining appliance goes to or having to ignore an alarm from Islesburgh......probably another false alarm......to go to a kitchen fire

[Ghostrider]

Just another point.

 

Why does the fire brigade have to attend? If a copter ditches in the sea what use are they?

 

A good enought question.......but not as it stands. Sure the fire brigade are not going to be a whole lot of use if any aircraft has ditched in the sea but I think a more relevant question has to be that of why airport emergencies are not left to the airport fire service to deal with. Presumably the fire service is considered competent enough to handle an inbound flight crashing on the runway without giving enough warning so that Lerwick fire crews could join in the critical first few minutes after a crash so why do they have to rush off to Sumburgh when there is a declared emergency.

 

The reason for my concern is that Lerwick is left with less cover than normal and the fire brigade officials might some day face the task of deciding which fire the remaining appliance goes to or having to ignore an alarm from Islesburgh......probably another false alarm......to go to a kitchen fire

 

The Airport Fire Service *should* be enough to cope with just about any emergency that is likely to arise, they have three all terrain appliances available at all times, to the best of my knowledge. The regular HIFB Sumburgh crew is called out for these emergencies as well, so the Airport Fire Service has always had back-up personnel, what possibly was lacking was back up equipment, as until very recently the Sumburgh HIFB crew only had a Merc van with a very limited equipment capacity, and Lerwick dispatching an appliance may well have been more for that reason than anything else. In case the highly unlikely happened and appliances/personnel were equally needed in several locations at the same time, ie. a plane broke up in to several sizable parts spread over a large area and each of them on fire. A building, or buildings got hit and went on fire, or the extremely unlikely happened that part or all of the Airport Fire Service was hit and disabled.

 

The Sumburgh HIFB crew now have a full sized, and assumedly fully equipped appliance of their own, and I am given to understand that the crew have been upgraded to retained status, the same as Lerwick. (I stand corrected if wrong on this, as I cannot recall where I got the information from). With the Sumburgh HIFB crew able to be mobilised and on scene in literally minutes with a full compliment af equipment and personnel, it does seem very excessive that Lerwick is anything more than put on stand by, in case the almost impossible occurs and the incident develops beyond the capacity of four appliances and crews.

[Marooned in Maywick]

Marooned in Maywick,

 

the posts you refer to are the excption not the rule. They arose not out of ourage at the polis not being allowed to do their job, but quite rightly, at the ones who tried to allow a man to continue to be beaten half to death. Readd back through the threads and you will see (hopefully) that the almost constant rule is, have a go at the polis.

 

 

Isn't that referring to the same incident - if the Police had been allowed to do their job at that particular time the assault might have been less serious. To me the outrage being directed at the individuals holding the Police back is the equivalent of expressing outrage at not allowing them to do their job.

 

Jeez, whodat, ALL the threads???

Just trawled through the North Star thread and the recurring theme was that the justice system needs looking at NOT having a pop at the Police.

I'll take your word for it that there are many other Police-bashing threads as I'm not gonna bother checking. If it IS the case then is it not just an example similar to Sandy Cluness' Smyril Line payments that public figures (and public servants) not only have to be cleaner than clean but also seen to be cleaner than clean? And, in the Soond Brae incident, it APPEARS that the standard of driving has fallen short of what is expected of a driver who has received advanced training. But like you, I'm not in possession of all the facts so, unlike some others, have refrained from commenting on that aspect of the incident.

[whodat]

Folks,

 

I don't always take others absolutely literally, otherwise I'd be taking a running jump off a cliff or pier every time my son told me to (the "every thread" bit), so I'm bemused by those who do, but each to their own, different drums and all that.

 

As to issue of the Polis car, sorry but I've been away and couldn't reply earlier, but I have enjoyed the responses my messages have generated. Debate and discussion solved more than hard words and fists (although Mr Hitler may disagree). I wish someone had told Mr Bush and Mr Blair that. Ah well, that's another topic...

 

The car did NOT turn 180 degrees airborne on impact. Someone has been watching too many Tony Scott movies. Look at the tracks. I did and then when you suggested it, I did again. The marks travel in more or less a straight line and then when the car hit the kerb AT AN ANGLE, it jumped and started to turn. On the wheels then ploughing into the soft grass verge AT A GREATER ANGLE it turned further before turning and rolling/spinning before coming to a halt facing the other way.

 

I have seen the other vehicle and I can tell you that either the driver of the Polis car has good reflexes or his speed was not as great as all that as only the very front of the car was damaged, and that from a (comparatively) glancing blow. It is apparent from the marks on the road that the driver of the Polis car was travelling slow enough to try and pull as wide as possible around the 4x4 although he could not avoid it altogether. By that time he had very little room to react and no time to stop the car before he hit the kerb. After that, it was all over.

 

Not exactly Richard Hammond. Besides which are we expected to believe that every Polis car is capable of that much significant acceleration uphill? The majority of the wee men from the pier at weekends could burn off all but one of the Polis cars I have seen up here.

 

Once again, I AM NOT DEFENDING HIM. He caused an accident and I have it on good authority that HE HAS BEEN DONE.

 

See, they are accountable and capable of policing themselves.

 

I agree that all persons setting themselves up in office of one kind or another are setting themselves up for a potential (verbal) kicking, but it doesn't mean that I have to like it or accept it or sit back while it happens, does it?

 

Thanks for the debate, I don't know how much longer I will be able to keep up my side. If I don't reply, it's not because I don't want to, believe me, it'll be because I am not physically able to. And dammitall, that is SO annoying, but age has no master save one...

 

Gie's peace...

[Marooned in Maywick]

 

Once again, I AM NOT DEFENDING HIM. He caused an accident and I have it on good authority that HE HAS BEEN DONE.

 

Anyone remember seeing anything in the paper about this?

[Njugle]

Nope not a jot.

 

However, coincidentally, i heard that a similar but minor incident happened on the north road recently, ie, polis sideswiped a car turning into a junction.