barred but apparently blameless

[Ghostrider]

^.....and drunk people should consider the possible consequences of walking in to trouble before getting as drunk as acquire the dutch courage to do so.

 

If a push causes a drunk to fall over, that would have been highly unlikely to cause them to fall over if sober, its their responsibility for getting in to such a state of incapability, not whoever pushed them.

 

Getting drunk is a personal decision, and the rest of the sober(er) population are not obligated to tolerate behaviour, or modify their usual behaviour just to accomodate folk who selfishly get plastered to the point they have diminished responsibility and still wander around in public. If someone wants to get as drunk that they behave like a dick, and get to being liable to be knocked over by the slightest thing, but greet if they're injured, then they should stay at home and get in that state there. Otherwise, they'll just have to learn to pull up their big girl panties and deal with the consequences of what they themselves made a significant contribution to.

 

Being drunk is not an excuse for anything.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Ghostrider

[playlist]

_{^ I am severely disgusted with your attitudes.  You carry on like you are I won't be responding as you have shown me how horrible you are in what you are saying as no-one has the right to hurt another person.  Just hope that it is not your requiring help some day, clearly as you have shown you would not help a stranger who required it and this just disgusts me of what you are stating of how you all are.}

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

Oh dear.  One can't assist all drama llamas in life.  Perish the thought that the world isn't full of cotton wool and fluffy bunnies with people patting each other on the back going 'there, there, did you have a drinkypoo too many but it's not your fault; here, have an alkaseltzer'.

[Claadehol]

** mod edit - some sections of this comment have been removed **

 

Playlist needs to join the real world, and (as has been said) work for a few weekends in licensed
premises in Lerwick just to experience the flak and abuse that flies around.

I think Playlist has led a very sheltered life, works in social care, reads only the Guardian, and
would benefit from some real life experiences.
That kind of experience doesn't come from social worker guide books but from a common sense approach
to life. Sometimes the only way some people learn is when they take some punishment.
This guy might well need further fractures before the message gets through.
I have also worked in bars, my sympathy lies exactly where it belongs, with the barman.
I am so so sorry Playlist that my attitude disgusts you, but I believe if someone is giving me grief
then I have every right and reason to give him some. If he is warned several times and continues, well
well, if he gets hurt that's all down to him.
I am happy to help anyone who needs help, but I'm damned if I'm going put up with an ignorant nuisance.

[Ghostrider]

_{.....no-one has the right to hurt another person.}

 

Correct, and nobody hurt anybody here, as far as I'm aware.

 

Somebody got hurt accidentally as a direct result of the consequences of them ignoring what they'd been told more than once previously.

 

If someone ignores a 'Beware of the Bull' or 'Beware of the Dog' sign, they run a very high risk of ending up with a horn up where the sun don't shine, or the mutt making do with their family jewels for lunch....If someone is legitimately forbidden to enter premises for whatever reason, they run a very high risk of being met with a hostile reception, and a prompt and forceful ejection if they ignore that instruction. Its no rocket science....

[audi-ya-do]

The other point I'll make is that people usually plead guilty, not because they are, but that the "justice system" is set up in such a way as to get you to plead that way. If you plead guilty early you get a lighter sentence, and that sentence increases dramatically if you go not guilty but are found so later on. Even then be under no illusion that all the Sheriffs court is there for is to make money, NOT justice, and your sentence is made before you even walk into court. If you don't believe that you can find the PF and Sheriff regularly together discussing cases before they even enter the court. Quite frankly there is usually no justice but that you make yourself.

If you have an individual who appears to be well known for his abusiveness then surely the police were aware of him, but they seemed to wait till someone stood their ground. Then go after that person for showing that the police were incapable of keeping people safe to the point where the provoked have to take action. The police always act harshly against vigilantly type acts, but if they did their jobs properly people wouldn't feel like they have no choice but to do something in the first place.

I wonder how many people would plead not guilty all the way if the sentence was fixed from the beginning (i.e. £1000 fine if you go guilty straight away, but still a £1000 if you go not guilty and were found guilty by the court.) to make it fair. But then the courts may start costing money and not making it...

Edited March 16, 2018 by audi-ya-do

[mikeyboy]

Regarding the guilty plea, he's probably been briefed that if he goes 'not guilty' and it doesn't pan out - then his licence is smoked.

 

More of a damage limitation excersise as opposed to an outright admission of guilt............ 

 

No an outright admission of guilt is exactly what it is.

You are normally " briefed" to plead not guilty until your lawyer gets a chance to see the evidence and what witnesses turn up on the day.

Edited March 16, 2018 by mikeyboy

[Windwalker]

The heading of this topic is “barred but apparently blameless” but It’s unfortunate that some people only see black or white, but it’s not as simple as that. To go back to the heading the drunk! person has responsibility for his actions and his actions led to him being asked to leave, he didn’t and was eventually escorted off the premises. I have no issues with this what so ever.

 

Then he was shoved resulting in him falling and breaking his wrist. This is where the grey area exists, as I was not there I didn’t see how he was shoved, was it a gentle push to remove him from the door way or was there anger and aggression above what was required to remove him. I don’t know the answer, but it seemed there was enough doubt for it to end up in court.

 

I do not believe that the outcome was intended, but we could say that about just about anything after the fact. In hindsight would the member of staff take the same action again, I doubt it. Regardless of the reasons, once we lay hands on another we risk prosecution regardless of our intentions.

 

Was the ‘drunk’ blameless. No and I think he should have been dealt with by the court as well.

 

As for pleading guilty to get an reduced fine etc, I’m sure this will happen, but if you are innocent a good lawyer will advise you to stand your ground and fight your case. I’m sure your lawyer will have a discussion with the sheriff as well before the case starts.

 

This isn’t a simple black, white issue, it’s full of gray areas, unless you were there you don’t know the details.

[audi-ya-do]

Spoken like people who've never been to court. The simple fact is lots of people take the guilty plea rather than face the possibility of a more severe penalty even if they know they're innocent. Forget what you were told in the eyes of the law your guilty unless you can prove your innocent, a difficult task at best of times. As for solicitors all they want is there fee for appearing in court, I'd guess most couldn't care less if your innocent or guilty.

[Windwalker]

Spoken like people who've never been to court. The simple fact is lots of people take the guilty plea rather than face the possibility of a more severe penalty even if they know they're innocent. Forget what you were told in the eyes of the law your guilty unless you can prove your innocent, a difficult task at best of times. As for solicitors all they want is there fee for appearing in court, I'd guess most couldn't care less if your innocent or guilty.

Spoken like someone who makes statements which he thinks makes his points more credable, without knowing whether what he states is correct or not.

[Ghostrider]

As for pleading guilty to get an reduced fine etc, I’m sure this will happen, but if you are innocent a good lawyer will advise you to stand your ground and fight your case.

 

Bad lawyers cost a shed load of cash, 'good' lawyers cost a shed load more. If either costs more than what it'll cost you to take the rap at the first appearance in Court and walk, its a no brainer. Its not like the Court covers the cost of the defence when there is a Not Guilty outcome, that's the accoused burden regardless that they were as innocent as the newborn.

 

The Court and lawyers are sitting pretty in a 'Heads we win, tails you lose' situation, whatever they do or don't do their profit remains the same. It is always about money in the end, nothing else.

[playlist]

Brochbuilder - people choose what line of work they do and their manners and how they respect and help others, some people would not help anyone no matter what the circumstances and appears to be quite a few on Shetlink, they don't get pushed into it, it is their choice to be a barman, manager, door steward, barman/woman, whatever, they are trained in licence regulations  and what to do/not do and door stewards also in how to deal with people.  If they choose to lay their hands on any member of the public and hurt them that is their own choice and not following their training/regulations required and they take the consequences, whatever they may be, licence revocation, penalty fine, years in jail, because of their actions in hurting others, you should know this if you have any common sense.  

Whatever the circumstances if I was not guilty, I would not plead guilty, no matter the consequences as telling truth.

Appears you are friends of the bar manager or know person in some way, but everyone has to abide by the law and rules, you should know that too, but choose to hurt others and not give a damn care at all and would not help others.  To let you know we all live in the real world, whatever other world is there, only life we are presently living, this is just so unbelievable but some of you have shown how you are and are not nice, windwalker is the only sensible one on this topic it appears.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

** mod edit - comment removed - tone it down **

[playlist]

That's where ghostriders photo is from, very good.  I am just stating the obvious and what is legal, it is you lot who wish things the other way and that anyone can hurt another person and get off with it, that's not how things work, thank goodness.

Edited March 16, 2018 by playlist

[Claadehol]

** mod edit - comment removed **