Brexit (merged threads)

[Ghostrider]

Remembrance Sunday a time for reflection and national mourning especially in this centenary year.

 

This may be your opinion of what Remembrance Sunday is, and that's okay, but its certainly not mine.

 

I tend to take my lead from the opinions of those who fought in and/or lived through two world wars against basically the same enemy, and whom I think its reasonable to conclude were in a far better position to have a valid opinion on the subject, than the vast majority of people alive today. Of those I knew, they fell almost exclusively in to one of two camps, those for whom it was a closed subject in every size, shape and form, and those who took the attitude that an 'officially organised' event like Remembrance Sunday had more to do with making politicians and generals, who, from positions of safety sent countless out to their deaths, give the appearance that they and their successors gave a damn about anyone but themselves.

 

Having a single national remembrance service in London, they were indifferent to, erecting memorials in each district to commerate the victims they were fine with. Remembrance Sunday however they were much less okay about, and saw it as an attempt by the same politicians and generals who had ordered so many out to their deaths with minimal option but go, trying to dictate to those who were lucky enough to survive, when, where, when and how they should remember and commemorate those who didn't make it. To them, it was an interference too far, and largely an exercise in hypocracy and whitewash.

 

So, when joining the EU came along those same folk saw that as a betrayal, disrespect, being stabbed in the back and a significant escalation in the hypocracy of the "powers that be". As many said, for 10 years of my life we fought with these people, not knowing whether the next minute would bring life or death. Yet now we're supposed to be their friends and pretend none of that ever happened........

 

They've virtually all gone now, but based on the opinions and feelings they expressed in life, I'm pretty sure few if any of those with first hand knowledge of the wars would have been anything less than delighted that even if it had taken 45 years for folk to see sense, that the country was finally going to sever ties with the longstanding warmongers from the continent. I'm equally sure too though that they'd have been livid at the eternal attempts at stalling, fudging and diluting severing those ties, and seen that as yet more betrayal, back-stabbing, hypocracy and disrespect.

 

If we're going to talk about what is 'shameful', how about some of our our European 'friends' choosing the centenial of the armistice as the time to resurrect the thorny idea of raising a 'Military' force under EU control, - Pretty much a modern day version of what both wars were fought against.

 

If we don't learn from history that there has been an insatiable drive within some Italians, French and Germans stretching back two Millennia for a single nation 'Europe' which includes the UK, that is still very much alive and well, and treat them accordingly. The sacrifices of all previous European wars will have been in vain, and there is no greater shameful hypocracy than claiming to remember and mourn those who gave their lives, when we apparently still have to learn the lesson they gave their lives for.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Ghostrider

[Urabug]

Thanks GR well said.

[Urabug]

@mikeyboy--No not really explain to me what freedoms the Great war won and what freedoms are being won due to Brexit and what links the two subjects?

 

We have enjoyed the freedom to read and write,the freedom of speech.

 

We can join any club or organization be it religious or otherwise 

 

If our foes had won 100 years ago,we probably would not be here and certainly  would not be enjoying those freedoms.

 

Over the past 40 years as a member of the EU those freedoms are slowly and gradually being restricted due to stupid regulations imposed from a non elected clique that seems to controls everything its 28 members and others do.

 

Homophobia,sexism.racism ect.ect.now playing a big part in all our everyday lives to the extent we all have to be careful what we say and do.

 

Try telling a few Irish, Jewish or sexy jokes ect  in public and you may well end up in jail for participating in nothing more than "harmless fun"

 

The fun is now going out of this great country the UK by the stupid constraints and regulation from Brussels

 

Freedom from those restrictions and the right to freely trade with who ever we want and make our own laws is what I want.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Urabug

[Capeesh]

Are the majority of our fellow Shetlanders who voted to remain in the EU (56.5% of us) also guilty of betraying the memory of family members who fought and died in the wars?

[Urabug]

Are the majority of our fellow Shetlanders who voted to remain in the EU (56.5% of us) also guilty of betraying the memory of family members who fought and died in the wars?

No I respect democracy and the right for folk to decide what they think is right for themselves.

 

Do not forget this was a National vote,saw no mention on my voters card that  counties would  be counted separately.

 

It was like a game of football only one side could win !

Edited November 15, 2018 by Urabug

[Wheelsup]

I think that anyone who believes regulations will be relaxed after we leave the EU are sadly mistaken. The world has for the greater part moved on from the 40's 50's and 60's.

There will maybe be more austerity and restrictions in this country if Brexit starts badly. It could well screw up our pensions and welfare system. remember a lot of working people have already had their pensions reduced bu successive governments.

 

And jokes about sexism, racism and minorities were not really harmless. Only we were, then, too ignorant to realise it - still had a bit of growing up to do!  

I would like to  think that our people who gave their lives in the world wars did so for the greater good and not for petty nationalism. If you can.t get on with our neighbours pity help us.

[Davie P]

No I respect democracy....

 

(I don't mean to pick on you Urabug, but...)

 

Referendums are not 'native' to our democracy and are extremely rare. A national public vote may be democratic in principle, but it does not override the legal and constitutional basis of our democracy and legislative processes. In terms of UK democracy, parliament is sovereign.

 

In the case of the Brexit referendum, it was 'pre-legislative' (meaning any legislation still needs to be passed by parliament), the High Court ruled that the result would not be legally binding, and the conservative party assured parliament the result would only be advisory but that they would endeavour to implement the result.

 

To respect the UK's democratic processes is to respect parliament's right to debate and oppose the government's legislative proposals. Some people didn't like the result of the vote, same as some people don't like that the government are having a tough time getting their legislation passed...... but not 'liking' something isn't enough to overrule constitutional principles or claim the processes as undemocratic.

 

The various processes that are in place are in part designed to prevent ill-considered and/or reactionary legislation being passed, and that's what we witnessing. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Davie P

[Ghostrider]

If you can.t get on with our neighbours pity help us.

 

Getting on with neighbours is a two way street, it requires equal motivation and intent from both parties, and humanity hasn't exactly excelled at it in all of recorded history at any level. If 'need', greed, politics or religion doesn't provide the vital spark for conflict, being 'offended' usually manages to fill that gap.

 

Even with the best will in the world from both parties, sometimes where 'neighbours' have values, beliefs, customs etc that are just too different from each other to have common ground, the only way to get on is to completely and absoutely ignore the existence of each other.

 

Getting on with neighbours though falls a very long way short of being subsumed by them in to some collective where we become a clone of every other member of that collective, which is where the EU is rapidly going. We held a referendum and the electorate decided being a clone in that collective was not for us. Our neighbours could have reacted to that by calmly inviting us to discuss a possible alternative relationship that was more palatable, but instead they entrenched themselves behind a 'one size fits all' policy, and an 'either you're with us or you're against us' attitude, and have kept throwing threats of punitive measures at us ever since.

 

So, from where I'm sitting, while we may have 'offended' them by declaring we don't want to be in their gang anymore, they've done nothing to try and entice or persuade us to change our minds. Rather they've shown themselves to be of the opposite attitude, by being petty, vindictive and apparently vengeful.

 

Neighbours like that, anybody is better off without.

[Capeesh]

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you can.t get on with our neighbours pity help us.

 

... Rather they've shown themselves to be of the opposite attitude, by being petty, vindictive and apparently vengeful.

 

Neighbours like that, anybody is better off without.

I don't see pettiness, vindictiveness or vengefulness when I look at the reaction of our neighbours to this Tory government's bizarre, incompetent and downright incomprehensible approach to negotiations, all I see is complete and utter confusion from our European friends.

How many years since the vote? How long have negotiations been ongoing? Even now, after all this time, the circus clowns in the Tory party haven't even decided amongst themselves what they want from negotiations!

How on earth can anybody negotiate with that?

It's as plain as can be our useless representatives in Westminster are desperate to deflect blame for this dogs dinner of a Brexit to hide their own shortcomings.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Capeesh

[Wheelsup]

The Press are feeding us all stories and interpretating the situation to create sensationalism.

The politicians are too busy jostling for power and stabbing each other in the back.

The brexiteers are in danger of shooting themselves in the foot by trying to derail any agreements, just to try and take over the Tory party. All the other parties are behaving just as bad.

 

Brexit is too dangerous and important to be left to any one party. It’s far too complicated to be left to the general public to make an informed decision.

 

A government of national unity would be more appropriate to make any deals.

[Ghostrider]

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you can.t get on with our neighbours pity help us.

... Rather they've shown themselves to be of the opposite attitude, by being petty, vindictive and apparently vengeful.

 

Neighbours like that, anybody is better off without.

I don't see pettiness, vindictiveness or vengefulness when I look at the reaction of our neighbours to this Tory government's bizarre, incompetent and downright incomprehensible approach to negotiations, all I see is complete and utter confusion from our European friends.

How many years since the vote? How long have negotiations been ongoing? Even now, after all this time, the circus clowns in the Tory party haven't even decided amongst themselves what they want from negotiations!

How on earth can anybody negotiate with that?

It's as plain as can be our useless representatives in Westminster are desperate to deflect blame for this dogs dinner of a Brexit to hide their own shortcomings.

 

 

Such was always the worst scenario outcome when our current version of 'democracy' gave us a clear mandate for 'leave' from a single issue national vote, but a parlimentary majority of pro-europeans to achieve it from a constituency by constituency general election, and unfortunately the worst scenario outcome is what we've gotten.

 

Having fiddled for 18 months they've virtually missed the boat on all the global opportunities leaving presented that could have been set up to slip as seamlessly as possible in to place on the exit date, and instead we'll be starting off on the back foot and madly playing catch up instead. Likewise, if anything was potentially salvageable from our current relationship with the EU we've pretty much burned our bridges on that also with their dithering and indecisiveness.

 

There's only one option left now, get out ASAP, and get on with crawling from the wreckage as best we can.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

There has been a cross party committee involved in BREXIT.  The problem is that the EU won't budge, it wouldn't matter what political party sent representatives to Brussels, the answer from Brussels would have been the same.  The Greeks said don't even attempt to negotiate with them because they'll shift the goalposts and mess you about; the only person who really got anywhere with Brussel was (ahem!) President Trump!

 

Our actual neighbours, the ordinary person in the street living in Holland, France, Germany, Italy, etc., are FINE.  The problem is their political representatives and the civil servants in the EU, not the European people.

All this talk about being tied into EU rules.  Well, does May not get that some of us don't want vacuum cleaners that are tested when empty and have no real power, don't want the horrendous EU permitted food colouring, don't want the petty rules which mean many of our cars end up failing an MOT because it has a split dust cover costing 20p but labour costs a fortune to get to the stupid thing (I remember years ago the threat of only having tyres on motorbikes that the manufacturers approved, yeah right, think it was BMW who had lobbied the EU for that gem) and all the other petty interference ... so if we stick to goods being designed for EU markets then what if a country outside the EU has different requirements?

If under English law (and I think, if I understand correctly, Scottish law has even more protection) I signed a contract that was deemed to be unfair, it would be thrown out in Court.  Yet that is what this draft agreement has, unfair contract terms.  Normally, a contract can be ended not with both parties' agreement but with either party giving say one month's notice.  Yet the BREXIT agreement would tie us in until both sides agreed we could leave.  That's not giving us back power, that's us surrendering.  By all means pay towards people's pensions who work for the EU but for other projects, etc.?  NO.

We don't buy the majority of our food from the EU.  Whilst the EU countries collectively together make up being our largest trading partner, we still export more to the rest of the world.  The scaremongering by the press and others is absolutely ridiculous.  Didn't Greenland leave the EU?  Not all EU countries are towing the Brussels' line right now, look at Poland, Hungary and Italy, for example.

 

Many of us knew it was going to be a tangled web to unraffle, but that does not mean it is impossible and that there would not be bumps along the way.

And yes, I do think many of those who had fought in the wars would be turning in their grave if they knew what was being proposed right now.

[George.]

 Not all EU countries are towing the Brussels' line right now, look at Poland, Hungary and Italy, for example.

 

Why is Britain still pandering to the E.U? Surely, if we had any sense at all, we would have done no more than say goodbye, courteously of course   We could then chase them out of our waters, and buy and sell to whoever we chose. We then wouldn't be threatened with the problems that we are now, not to mention the fact that we really ain't out yet - and the remoaners haven't given up yet either.

 

The E.U. is no more than a leech

[redrobbie]

Macron now says there should be an EU army . Yet when Farage said this was their plan before the Brexit vote he was mocked by our polititians and press .https://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/how-myth-eu-army-bolstered-brexit-vote       https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-france-russia-us-military-defence-eu-a8619721.html

Edited November 17, 2018 by redrobbie

[Roachmill]

^A broken clock may be right twice a day... but it still belongs in the bin too.