Urabug Posted December 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 John Tulloch's letter in todays Shetland Times and here, https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/12/07/carmichael-one-of-the-brexit-saboteurs/, is I would think the feelings of many here in Shetland. Well written John thanks from me. What a hypocrite and the sad fact is there is a lot more like him. But we won't forget them when on our next visit to the ballet box. Anyone who has defied the will of the people and made a mockery of democracy cannot expect to be trusted to represent us in parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 Possibly, but NOT the point I was making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 Well, I will never vote for him again. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGHR Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 John Tulloch's letter in todays Shetland Times and here, https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/12/07/carmichael-one-of-the-brexit-saboteurs/, is I would think the feelings of many here in Shetland. Well written John thanks from me. What a hypocrite and the sad fact is there is a lot more like him. But we won't forget them when on our next visit to the ballet box. Anyone who has defied the will of the people and made a mockery of democracy cannot expect to be trusted to represent us in parliament.What about the "will" of the 16 odd million people who voted to remain. Are you happy for their democratic right to be "mocked"? It's not the politicians who are making a mockery of democracy it's the first past the post voting system which is fundamentally undemocratic in the first place. Carmichael may well be a hypocrite, but calling for another referendum does not make him one. He is doing his job as a member of one of the opposition parties, that is, proposing alternative polices to those of the Government. Do you expect the opposition to simply adopt all government polices following every election because it is "the will of the people"? No of course not, you expect them to do their jobs, that is 'oppose'. As usual the clue is in the name. It's no different this time, the opposition parties, all of them, are doing precisely what they are supposed to do. Infact the policy of the Lib Dems in calling for another referendum will, I suspect, serve them well. They are savvy enough to understand that the "will" of the majority of people is now undoubtedly to remain in the EU and they are hoping to capitalise on that at the next election. Davie P and mikeyboy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/12/07/carmichael-one-of-the-brexit-saboteurs/ Don't really know but, could this be described as "Treason" ? No. He is operating within the established rules of our democracy. The referendum was advisory, parliament is sovereign and he is an elected member of parliament for a pro EU party and constituency. Like it or lump it, that's how our democracy works. Personally, I think our democratic processes have held up remarkably well given the beating they've taken by those that believe an advisory and detail-free referendum should usurp them. JGHR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabug Posted December 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 John Tulloch's letter in todays Shetland Times and here, https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/12/07/carmichael-one-of-the-brexit-saboteurs/, is I would think the feelings of many here in Shetland. Well written John thanks from me. What a hypocrite and the sad fact is there is a lot more like him. But we won't forget them when on our next visit to the ballet box. Anyone who has defied the will of the people and made a mockery of democracy cannot expect to be trusted to represent us in parliament.What about the "will" of the 16 odd million people who voted to remain. Are you happy for their democratic right to be "mocked"? It's not the politicians who are making a mockery of democracy it's the first past the post voting system which is fundamentally undemocratic in the first place. Carmichael may well be a hypocrite, but calling for another referendum does not make him one. He is doing his job as a member of one of the opposition parties, that is, proposing alternative polices to those of the Government. Do you expect the opposition to simply adopt all government polices following every election because it is "the will of the people"? No of course not, you expect them to do their jobs, that is 'oppose'. As usual the clue is in the name. It's no different this time, the opposition parties, all of them, are doing precisely what they are supposed to do. Infact the policy of the Lib Dems in calling for another referendum will, I suspect, serve them well. They are savvy enough to understand that the "will" of the majority of people is now undoubtedly to remain in the EU and they are hoping to capitalise on that at the next election. The UK system of democracy was evoked at the ballot box and the results are well known. All our politicians should have accepted the results and all worked together to get us out of the EU . Once out we could then have negotiated new terms that were more acceptable to us in the UK as a democratic country.and hopefully that is what we will do. The behaviour of many of our parliamentary representatives I think has seriously weakened our position and as a result the EU is now treating us like *hite No matter which way I voted,I would definitely want out now that the EU has shown their true colours and just how much of a hold they have on us. My very dear relatives and thousands other fought and experienced things no one would want to go through for what ,to end up being controlled from Brussels with Germany playing a leading roll. We have to leave what ever it costs to regain or sovereigty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 https://www.shetnews.co.uk/2018/12/07/carmichael-one-of-the-brexit-saboteurs/ Don't really know but, could this be described as "Treason" ? No. He is operating within the established rules of our democracy. The referendum was advisory, parliament is sovereign and he is an elected member of parliament for a pro EU party and constituency. Like it or lump it, that's how our democracy works. Personally, I think our democratic processes have held up remarkably well given the beating they've taken by those that believe an advisory and detail-free referendum should usurp them. Fair enough if he had restricted his activities to parliament and the UK but, trudging around the EU "mixing it" might have seen his head removed in other times.. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 The referendum was advisory, parliament is sovereign and he is an elected member of parliament for a pro EU party and constituency. Like it or lump it, that's how our democracy works.What democracy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) Infact the policy of the Lib Dems in calling for another referendum will, I suspect, serve them well. They are savvy enough to understand that the "will" of the majority of people is now undoubtedly to remain in the EU and they are hoping to capitalise on that at the next election. Yet more proof that those and such as those in Westminster are sovereign, very sovereign. However, that makes "Democracy" a complete and utter insult to the voters that put them in. Of course, here in what they call the United Kingdom, there are twelve LibDim M.P's that do what they want, as opposed to what the people that voted them in actually want. Twelve M.P's - out of six hundred and fifty. What a huge percentage of nobodies that nobody votes for. I wonder what stupid bar stewards voted in those that couldn't spell, never mind define, "Democracy." Edited December 7, 2018 by George. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 The UK system of democracy was evoked at the ballot box and the results are well known. All our politicians should have accepted the results and all worked together to get us out of the EU . I'm not aware of any politician who didn't accept the results of the referendum, but it was an advisory ballot. The High Court in 2016 ruled that “a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament” link This result is that parliament is now doing what it was designed to do and is debating the detail - detail that hadn't been known and/or available to the public at the time of the vaguely worded referendum. I'm sure parliament wouldn't be giving leaving the EU (whatever that actually means) this level of consideration if it hadn't been for the referendum, so in that respect, I think the referendum did its job. mikeyboy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capeesh Posted December 7, 2018 Report Share Posted December 7, 2018 ...We have to leave what ever it costs to regain or sovereigtyThis is the kind of thing I find hard to grasp with Brexit, are these not sovereign nations? Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffererof1crankymofo Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 I'm not aware of any politician who didn't accept the results of the referendum, but it was an advisory ballot. The High Court in 2016 ruled that “a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament” link This result is that parliament is now doing what it was designed to do and is debating the detail - detail that hadn't been known and/or available to the public at the time of the vaguely worded referendum. I'm sure parliament wouldn't be giving leaving the EU (whatever that actually means) this level of consideration if it hadn't been for the referendum, so in that respect, I think the referendum did its job. Just how much clearer could the wording of the referendum been then? Honestly, you really couldn't get any clearer. The problem is that May's BREXIT isn't BREXIT, it's a mish-mash. There's a reasonable clip doing the rounds on Facebook right now of a parliamentary speech, in that there was never so much stink kicked up regarding the Welsh referendum; those who voted against it accepted the decision. What we are experiencing right now is politicians refusing to accept the leave decision; it's simple not cricket, dear boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/46492287/alastair-campbell-told-to-shut-up-during-newsnight-brexit-debate So, the much vaunted "impartial" (?) BBC decides to interview two "remainers" about Brexit, and they fall out over AC's continual interruptions. ! Does the man have no respect for others opinions ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted December 8, 2018 Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 ^ The BBC is no more than Westminster's frontman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabug Posted December 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2018 ...We have to leave what ever it costs to regain or sovereigtyThis is the kind of thing I find hard to grasp with Brexit, are these not sovereign nations?Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden. Yes correct probably all sovereign nations but can they execute their own sovereignty or are they like the UK being ruled from Brussels. Any country that is a member of the EU is being controlled from Brussels, not fully self-governing.. Sovereignty---supreme power or authority.,a self-governing state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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