Brexit (merged threads)

[Ghostrider]

 

 

If you thought leaving the EU would (not "should") result in a clean breakaway... then I don't really know what to say. There was always going to be some give and take and consequences thereof.

 

 

No, there wasn't. That option wasn't put to the people. You're making an unstated claim, an assumption, a wishful thinking invention of remainers.

 

The question was 'Remain' or 'Leave'. About as simple and as unambiguous of a choice as could have been put to anyone.

 

Either continue as you are, or walk away. Nothing there about strings attached whatsoever.

 

If they came to us with an offer or a deal that was to our advantage, fine, talk about it. Otherwise not our problem, let them stew in their own juices, there's a whole big world out there beyond the EU to talk to, most of whom as far easier to haggle with and get along with than continentals.

 

 

I was merely making what I consider to be a pragmatic observation but you can call it whatever derisive name you like. No wonder you're p*ssed off if you thought a successful leave result would get you what you describe above!

 

 

Whether it got in the end what's described above, is besides the point. What's described above should have been the starting point after the referendum. All bets off, everything between us and the EU prior to that point rendered null and void, then start off with a clean slate and regotiate what kind of relationship, if any, we were to have with them going forward.

 

This picking through the wreckage of our EU membership that the electorate has rejected, trying to salvage bits and pieces from the ashes to cobble together as some sort of hybrid phoenix that's been half-heartedly going on for the last two years is wholly the wrong approach, and conveys entirely the wrong impression to the EU.

 

However, seeing as our Europhile government has chosen the latter approach, the only way now to salvage Brexit is to get out ASAP with no deal. The Tories have in all probability rendered themselves unelectable as a government for a generation with their antics over the last two years, and if they don't deliver Brexit on time and in full they will make that unelectability a certainty.

 

What then? Labour haven't even begun to make themselves electable as a government yet after the shambolic latter days of the last lot, and unlikely ever will as long as they have an 'old red' at the helm. In or out of the EU it won't really matter, as the greatest danger to this country will come from within if Brexit isn't fully up and running doing what it says on the time in seven weeks time, from unstable and probably short lived hung parliaments and extremists taking advantage of the situation to get in to positions of influence.

[George.]

 

^I would dispute that, Windwalker. If you don't vote then you have no choice, and if you have no choice then you will only get what they choose to give, or what they choose to take from you. We need to go Indy and leave them behind.

 

Shetland or Scotland?

All. IMHO, everybody should dump everything that Westminster inflicts itself upon.

[Sacre Bleu]

@ Sacre Bleu

 

Really not sure why you've felt the need to post about the referendum not being binding; I merely replied to you posting your quoted text below, together with you enquiring as to which legislation:-

 

"The fundamental problem is that there were no clear processes put in place that would be enacted by the result of the referendum, and the government have been 'making it up as they go along' since then."

 

Are you insinuating that timelines, how to trigger the notice, etc., aren't processes?

 

The second part of my reply was not directed at you, so my apologies if you thought it was.

 

I don't have anything to add beyond repeating what I've written, but to answer our question, triggering Article 50 on a certain date doesn't, IMHO, constitute a process. I'm not insinuating that, I'd like to be quite clear about it.

 

The period between the referendum and now has been chaotic and hallmarked by delays, court cases, contempt of parliament actions, backbench rebellions, confusion around the Irish border etc that could have been avoided if the process had been carefully thought through.

[Sacre Bleu]

 

For the government and many Leave campaigners to present it as a situation by which the result of an advisory referendum in which only 37% of the electorate voted for constitutional change must immediately and unquestioningly be implemented without parliamentary due diligence is at best nieve, and has resulted in much divisive ill-feeling and muddying of constitutional waters.

 

It hardly matters what percentage voted for the change in the referendum, the majority of those who chose to express an opinion on the day voted for it,and  that is the decision that stands, as that IS how democracy works. Its an established principle of democracy that those who chose not to vote, for whatever reason, accept the will of the majority who did. Attempts to belittle or discredit the 'value' of a democratic vote by imposing some arbitarily decided percentage of the entire electorate having to vote a certain way before it has 'validity' is simply subverting democracy and a contemptible tactic of the losers to gain some ground.

 

A simple majority vote on a single issue is but one form of arriving at a decision. Like it or not, in a representative democracy such as ours, it is rarely straightforward for a decision to be enacted quickly and without amendment as there are many checks and balances. I do not wish to be patronising, but it could be worth researching how referendums operate and the legislation that governs them.

 

As I have stated, I am in favour of leaving the EU so you can save your contempt. Attempts to undermine a factual point by claiming the person making the point must have ulterior motives does not alter a fact.

[paulb]

however when an eu presidential type gets there knickers in a knot over a no deal Brexit. then maybe its the best option. no deal no pay. border with ireland and the north two lanes one for Irish/brits another for all others. and why should there not be a border? should we leave it open so all other europeans could bypass our customs? and again why should we do ireland any favours. we agreed free movement not free customs.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

@ Sacre Bleu

 

Honestly, how many processes do you want?  One of the Acts referred to above lists which Acts and laws are being revoked.

If anyone is wanting to sabotage the Good Friday Agreement, it's the EU.  They care more about their principles and their ideologies than they do about peace.  Fine, we won't have a hard border; if Ireland chooses to be the EU's lap dog and do exactly what the EU demands, it's down to them to sort out with the EU, not us.  Hell (oops!), the EU doesn't want to budge an inch, compromise isn't what they want to do.  Who in their right minds would want to sign up indefinitely to be tied to certain EU Directives, give them a huge wad of billions of squids and not even have trade deals in place with them?  NO ONE, yet they have the audacity to try to put all the blame at our feet instead of accepting they too are at fault for their dogmatic approach.

[Sacre Bleu]

@ Suffererof1crankymofo

 

I'm happy with established parliamentary processes and timescales. My contention is that the government has been trying to circumvent those processes and push through imprudent legislation.

 

I don't recognise the EU that you and other commentators on this forum describe, nor do I believe the 'them and us' attitude is helpful (or accurate - we are, after all, still a key member). I think the UK has done very well as a member, but it is time for reform. I can understand people's ideology who wish to crash out of the EU as soon as possible and be damned with the consequences, but I think that's a reckless ideal. It may be my age!

 

[Davie P]

I don't imagine Tusk's recent comments will help with him and May's forthcoming (re)negotiations! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/06/donald-tusk-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backed-brexit-without-plan

[paulb]

just for the sake of annoying the young. let's revert to imperial weights and measures. and back to the old coinage. 

[George.]

just for the sake of annoying the young. let's revert to imperial weights and measures. and back to the old coinage. 

Bet you ten bob it wouldn't work

[Wheelsup]

I think we should form our own union and invite Ireland to join. We would be Great Britain and Ireland.

[Capeesh]

^^ Contrary to the stereotype the Irish have more sense. They've flourished since leaving.

[George.]

^They haven't left yet.

Edited February 8, 2019 by George.

[Grandma]

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/why-do-the-irish-still-owe-more-than-the-greeks-1.3001026

[Capeesh]

For a bit of perspective, between 1845 and 1849 when Ireland was an integral part of the UK 1,000,000 people starved to death and 2,000,000 people emigrated.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Capeesh