Jump to content

Brexit (merged threads)


Urabug
 Share

Recommended Posts

...What many people appear to forget is that we can still trade with EU member states on WTO terms.....

One problem, EU buyers would have to pay a 20% tariff to get British Steel's products if we leave the EU with no deal.

Union sources said British Steel had lost 25% of orders at its Scu.thorpe plant because of this kind of Brexit uncertainty.

Edited by Capeesh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Missed point. What effect the EU and Brexit have on the UK steel industry of 2019 is largely irrelevant. The UK steel industry was allowed to die over 30 years ago, and the EEC/EU stood by and watched it happen and not so much as raised a finger to either help save it or meaningfully help those negatively impacted by its demise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Capeesh - I know people who still work at the steelworks there.  The Gov. are paying the wages for the next 3 months but the order book, I understand, has orders for beyond then.  And if it is anything like when my grandfather worked in the offices there, orders are placed months in advance.  So what somebody wants in say 6 months' time would be ordered now, that type of thing.  Brexit uncertainty is one thing, but it's not the same as saying because of BREXIT/leaving the EU; two different things - they simply need to know the date so they know what the (anticipated) price will be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets balance up this discussion with some facts.

 

1.  It was the Tory's who sold British steel to the private sector in the 1980's and paved the way for the new owners to run it/sell it/shut it down in whichever way they saw fit. If you voted conservative in 1983 YOU personally share the responsibility for what happened to steel making in the UK thereafter. It had, and continues to have, absolutely nothing to do with the EEC/EU.

2. State aid rules for primary producers apply equally across member states of the EU. Primary producers and manufacturers in the UK are no more disadvantaged than their counterparts in other EU states.

3. The EU presently imposes a cap on the amount of steel which can be imported into the EU and that which is imported attracts a 25% tariff. UK steel makers, in common with their competitors in other member states, currently enjoy the benefit of this cap and the competitive advantage the tariff brings them over non EU steel makers from e.g India or China. In the event of a no deal Brexit, UK steel makers will no longer benefit from tariff free access to EU markets and will not be able to compete on WTO terms with steel makers in India and China. A no deal Brexit will be incredibly harmful to the UK steel industry and it is a very real possibility that it will not be able to survive it in any form whatsoever. If you vote for a no deal Brexit YOU, not the EU will be directly responsible for the fate of the steel industry in the UK thereafter.

4. British steel makers have not been competitive with steel makers in other EU member states for a number of years. This has nothing to do with the EU and is largely down to the relatively high value of the pound pre Brexit vote and the astronomical level of business rates in the UK compared to other member states. Neither of those things have anything to do with the EU and indeed have much to do with the government in Westminster.

5. European steel makers are not jealous of the circumstances which exist at steel making facilities in the UK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^Sorry I misinformed in a previous post...I mistakenly said EU buyers would have to pay a 20% tariff on British Steel products in the event of a no deal Brexit, thanks to JGHR I stand corrected and humbly apologise.....

It's 25%!!!!!!!

I like facts.

What about Shetland JGHR? I'm sure I read that salmon and lamb producers would be hit with similar tariffs in the event of a No deal Brexit.

Edited by Capeesh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

JGHR I would also like to bring a little balance here.

I worked at Irlam steelworks,  Manchester, at the end of the 60s and beginning of the 70s. I was involved in the calculation of the production figures, from ingot to bloom and finally to rolled billets.  Ted Heath and his cronies closed the place making thousands redundant. 

 

There were various reasons for closure but I would suggest the main was the way this nationalised industry was run, and the lack of accountability.

 

When the blast furnace was operating various additions had to be made to the cast in order to produce different qualities of steel. So many shovels of aluminium, manganese, etc.

There was a couldn't care less attitude which caused loss of a great deal of money. A cast of steel might be planned such as a high quality killed steel, but because the guy shovelling in the additions into the mix didn't care too much, after samples were taken of the finished cast  it had to be downgraded to a low grade balanced steel. This kind of idiocy caused the loss of a great deal of money.

 

This attitude, plus the quantity of men clocking each other in and out, and those sneaking off to the working men's club up the road, was certainly partly responsible for the closure.

 

The men closed the steelworks themselves. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's bring a bit more balance here without the needing of SHOUTING!

If British Steel didn't have a product companies worldwide wanted to purchase on WTO terms post BREXIT and if the order books were empty (which they are not) and if WTO tariffs never changed and if the USA/China situation didn't bring prices down ... the EU and virtual signalling with carbon taxes, etc., and if the EU not paying the carbon tax credits have hardly helped the situation.  A certain plant in the UK propped up the balance sheet profit column for a long time and there is a buyer interested in buying said plant.  It ain't exactly great that the existing owner has money to buy another plant within Europe either.

Out of the EU, the Government would be better placed to decide what businesses to support without the interference of the EU.  The EU didn't help when the coal mines closed and refused regeneration grants to Thatcher when she asked.

Incidentally, that particular area in the UK did vote for The Brexit Party.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^Sorry I misinformed in a previous post...I mistakenly said EU buyers would have to pay a 20% tariff on British Steel products in the event of a no deal Brexit, thanks to JGHR I stand corrected and humbly apologise.....

It's 25%!!!!!!!

I like facts.

What about Shetland JGHR? I'm sure I read that salmon and lamb producers would be hit with similar tariffs in the event of a No deal Brexit.

 

I'm not sure what it will mean for salmon and lamb producers in Shetland to be honest with you but its difficult to see how it can be good.

 

As far as I know the EU has not defined what level of import quota would apply to UK primary producers in the event of a no deal Brexit. I don't know how they go about establishing the no tariff quota level for non member states but there certainly will be a quota, or limit,  on the amount of produce that can be imported into the EU from the UK, should the UK leave without a deal. Shetland based farmers and crofters will have to share that quota with every other lamb producer in the UK. Once the quota is exhausted further imports will attract a tariff.

 

Now it might be the case that things like carbon taxes make it worthwhile for European buyers to pay the additional tariff and to continue to buy UK lamb/fish rather than getting it from further away from places like Chili or new Zealand I don't know. I don't think anyone does because no one in either the EU or UK governments ever imagined that something as monumentally stupid as leaving without a deal would ever be countenanced by the British parliament and so planning for such an event is not that well advanced.  I notice here  that New Zealand did not use all its quota in 2017 and could have exported an additional 100,000 tonnes of 'sheepmeat' tariff free to the EU that year. Whether or not it is more economical to pay the  transport costs and taxes to import that additional tariff free Kiwi lamb or pay the tarrif to import UK lamb remains to be seen. If you are a Shetland crofter producing lambs you would be well advised to intimately understand every aspect of those economics prior to advocating for a no deal BREXIT.

 

Whatever happens how can it be better than unlimited tariff free access to the EU market? 

 

Oh, and hopefully the governments in Wesminister and Hollyrood will find the cash and continue to see the benefit in paying subsidy to farmers and crofters to grow lambs for which there is no longer an easy tarrif free market. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So if Boris Johnson is summonsed to court to face accusation of misconduct,then surely all the politicians that have gone against the democratic  23rd June 2016 vote results should also be summonsed to appear before the courts. 

 

Surely the harm they have done to democracy "out weights" anything that Boris said, after all we are supposed to live in a country of free speech and be democratic are we not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So if Boris Johnson is summonsed to court to face accusation of misconduct,then surely all the politicians that have gone against the democratic  23rd June 2016 vote results should also be summonsed to appear before the courts. 

 

Surely the harm they have done to democracy "out weights" anything that Boris said, after all we are supposed to live in a country of free speech and be democratic are we not.

 

If we live in a country of free speech, surely people should be allowed to criticise Brexit? Or are you suggesting free speech should only apply to people who agree with you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So if Boris Johnson is summonsed to court to face accusation of misconduct,then surely all the politicians that have gone against the democratic  23rd June 2016 vote results should also be summonsed to appear before the courts. 

 

Surely the harm they have done to democracy "out weights" anything that Boris said, after all we are supposed to live in a country of free speech and be democratic are we not.

 

If we live in a country of free speech, surely people should be allowed to criticise Brexit? Or are you suggesting free speech should only apply to people who agree with you?

 

I'm not stopping or against anyone, for criticising Brexit , why would i  but fact is fact many have defied the result of the Brexit vote, and with free speech one has the choice to believe/or disbelieve  what is being said .

 

Better things of this nature ,spoken in the open for all to hear than behind closed doors .At least we then know what going on and can decide for ourselves what to believe.

 

I do believe everything I read or hear ,would not think many do !  :ponders:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.......and how much will the 'tariff' be for salmon, lamb, whatever on exports from the UK, when its not in the EU, to other nations worldwide, when we don't have to put up with some non-EU nations enacting punitive measures in retaliation for something the EU has put in place to 'protest' something that really has not much to do with or affects the UK?

 

Herrin.....Catch.....Russia...... Whatever Putin was allegedly getting up to in Georgia or wherever affects us or bothers us none. It didn't affect or bother the Icelanders either, who are now happily, and profitably merrily selling fish to Ivan that we could be selling, but for some nervous and jumpy old (wo)men in Brussels who are still stuck in a Cold War timewarp mentality, if not the remnants of the earlier sheer terror of the 'advancing reds' in '45.

 

There's a big bad world of 160 odd assorted banana republics out there to trade with, on terms agreed between each individual one of them and ourselves, why hamstring ourselves to trading with only 26 other banana republics according to rules which mostly benefit only others in the 26 and not ourselves, and with the other 160 odd on rules dictated by that 26.

Edited by Ghostrider
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...