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Urabug
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> probably partly due to our labour costs

 

That'll be the minimum wage then..

 

I hear its 1/10th of ours in China, in those areas that practice it.

 

Makes it hard to start a business if you have to pay your employees a small fortune or else.
 

I'm reminded in that place that cannot be mentioned, how most of the new jobs came from folk becoming self employed, so they could pay themselves less than minimum wage and compete against everyone else.

So its happening by the back anyway, just with more bureaucracy and red tape to deal with.
 

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...There's a big bad world of 160 odd assorted banana republics out there to trade with, on terms agreed between each individual one of them and ourselves, why hamstring ourselves to trading with only 26 other banana republics according to rules which mostly benefit only others in the 26 and not ourselves, and with the other 160 odd on rules dictated by that 26...

The 26 you refer to are collectively the richest and largest trading bloc in the world, the EU is a behemoth in trading terms who more often than not call the shots in trade negotiations with other nations, far from hamstringing us, the trade deals they've negotiated on our behalf and the frictionless free trade we've had as part of the club has benefited us. Edited by Capeesh
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the EU is a behemoth in trading terms who more often than not call the shots in trade negotiations with other nations, .....

 

Yup, they showed that young upstart Trump from over there in the colonies how these things are done, didn't they.

 

Must have been the fact he's half breed German that had them in such awe.

Edited by Ghostrider
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So if Boris Johnson is summonsed to court to face accusation of misconduct,then surely all the politicians that have gone against the democratic  23rd June 2016 vote results should also be summonsed to appear before the courts. 

 

Surely the harm they have done to democracy "out weights" anything that Boris said, after all we are supposed to live in a country of free speech and be democratic are we not.

 

What charges would you bring against them?

 

We've established several times that the referendum was advisory, and that Brexit is parliament's decision. That's how our democracy works. I have empathy for those who feel let down by politicians, and Boris Johnson is but one of many responsible for promoting the half truths and myths that have got us into this pickle.

 

With regards to the law, there are 3 key legal / constitutional rulings that I feel have been symptomatic of politicians disregard for our democratic processes throughout the Brexit process

  • The Electoral Commission fining Leave.EU for various breaches of electoral law, with police enquiries ongoing
  • Miller v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2017] - when the High Court thwarted the government's attempt to bypass parliament
  • The government being found in contempt for failing to publish the legal advice underpinning Brexit
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There's a big bad world of 160 odd assorted banana republics out there to trade with, on terms agreed between each individual one of them and ourselves, why hamstring ourselves to trading with only 26 other banana republics according to rules which mostly benefit only others in the 26 and not ourselves, and with the other 160 odd on rules dictated by that 26.

Once again it pays to examine the facts.

 

 

1. Nobody knows how much the tariff on goods exported to other nations world wide in the event of a no deal BREXIT will be because they are not yet established. What is known with a high degree of certainty is that it will be less favourable for British manufacturers and consumers than the status quo.

 

 

2.The notion that Great Britain will simply negotiate favourable individual trade deals with other Non EU countries is fantasy. The reason it is fantasy is because circa 95% of the countries in the world are members of the WTO and any individual deal with these countries must be in accordance with WTO rules. 

 

 

3.WTO rules mean that individual members are indeed free to negotiate terms of trade with any other country they wish but those trade deals must follow the conditions laid out in the schedules each individual country must agree when it first joins the WTO. Liam Fox, him who previously claimed that any post BREXIT trade deal would be "the easiest in human history", went to Geneva last year to instruct the WTO that a post BREXIT UK would simply adopt the very favorable terms in the existing EU schedules of membership they currently enjoy and which was negotiated for them as a member of the EU by the EU .  

 

 

4. At the Geneva meeting the USA, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil very quickly kiboshed Fox's pompous plan and sent him homeward to think again.

 

 

5. Disabused of the notion that bossing the WTO members into allowing Great Britain to dictate the terms of their membership schedules would be the easiest of things it eventually dawned on Fox that perhaps Theresa Mays deal with the EU wasn't such a bad thing after all, and so at the back end of last year he changed his mind and concluded that Mrs May had in fact achieved "the best possible deal that safely delivers BREXIT".

 

 

6.The text of the WTO schedules which determine what a post BREXIT UK can and cannot agree in any subsequent trade deal with WTO members thus remains unwritten.

 

 

7. Any of the 160 odd WTO member countries can object to the conditions laid out in the schedules which the UK will have to draft and get accepted by the WTO before they are even able to begin negotiating a direct trade deal with individual countries.

 

 

8. Getting consensus across 160 different WTO countries is unlikely to be any easier than negotiating an orderly exit from the EU has been.

 

 

9. The EU will be instrumental in the WTO schedule negotiations because it will be the EU representative who is negotiating the terms of post BREXIT UK’s WTO schedule conditions on behalf of the remaining EU members.

 

 

10. It will not be easy, and it will take years and years before a post BREXIT UK is even able to  begin negotiating a trade deal with another WTO member. The UK has next to zero bargaining power, they will be in a desperately weak position and they will have little option to take what is handed to them by the WTO and that will not be good.

 

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There's a big bad world of 160 odd assorted banana republics out there to trade with, on terms agreed between each individual one of them and ourselves, why hamstring ourselves to trading with only 26 other banana republics according to rules which mostly benefit only others in the 26 and not ourselves, and with the other 160 odd on rules dictated by that 26.

 

...Liam Fox, him who previously claimed that any post BREXIT trade deal would be "the easiest in human history", went to Geneva last year to instruct the WTO that a post BREXIT UK would simply adopt the very favorable terms in the existing EU schedules of membership they currently enjoy and which was negotiated for them as a member of the EU by the EU .

 

4. At the Geneva meeting the USA, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil very quickly kiboshed Fox's pompous plan and sent him homeward to think again.

 

5. Disabused of the notion that bossing the WTO members into allowing Great Britain to dictate the terms of their membership schedules would be the easiest of things it eventually dawned on Fox that perhaps Theresa Mays deal with the EU wasn't such a bad thing after all, and so at the back end of last year he changed his mind and concluded that Mrs May had in fact achieved "the best possible deal that safely delivers BREXIT"...

Delusional British exceptionalism at its best, people like Liam Fox, Boris Johnson and that monopoly character guy Rees-Mogg actually believe they can strut about the globe like peacocks and all others will bow and be in awe of their splendour.

I'm ashamed to admit that I thought the education that most of our masters in the palace of Westminster enjoyed might at least give them some idea of what they're doing. The reality is it's all smoke and mirrors, they're completely clueless. Brexit has cleared the fog and stripped us naked, we are now an international laughing stock, any respect we might have had has turned to pity and ridicule, and let's just hope that's all it is, who knows what the nations who have an axe to grind with us are thinking considering our illustrious past. They might enjoy bringing us down a peg or two.

Edited by Capeesh
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So if Boris Johnson is summonsed to court to face accusation of misconduct,then surely all the politicians that have gone against the democratic  23rd June 2016 vote results should also be summonsed to appear before the courts. 

 

Surely the harm they have done to democracy "out weights" anything that Boris said, after all we are supposed to live in a country of free speech and be democratic are we not.

 

What charges would you bring against them?

 

We've established several times that the referendum was advisory, and that Brexit is parliament's decision. That's how our democracy works. I have empathy for those who feel let down by politicians, and Boris Johnson is but one of many responsible for promoting the half truths and myths that have got us into this pickle.

 

With regards to the law, there are 3 key legal / constitutional rulings that I feel have been symptomatic of politicians disregard for our democratic processes throughout the Brexit process

  • The Electoral Commission fining Leave.EU for various breaches of electoral law, with police enquiries ongoing
  • Miller v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2017] - when the High Court thwarted the government's attempt to bypass parliament
  • The government being found in contempt for failing to publish the legal advice underpinning Brexit

 

There was definitely nothing on my voting slip that indicated that it was "advisory" so that is pure nonsense.

 

It is just our MPs making and breaking the rules of democracy to suit themselves.

 

The majority of them should be kicked out for dereliction of duty.

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There was definitely nothing on my voting slip that indicated that it was "advisory" so that is pure nonsense.

There is generally very little written on voting slips. I would hope people would have familiarised themselves with the context of what they were voting on before going into the booth.

 

 

There was definitely nothing on my voting slip that indicated that it was "advisory" so that is pure nonsense.

 It's not nonsense, it's a verified fact Urabug! It's been ratified by parliament, the Lords and the High Court - you don't get much more fact-y than that!

 

Parliament agreed the "European Union Referendum Act 2015" which stated the vote was "Pre-legislative" meaning it had to come back to parliament - that was a key reason why the pro EU parties backed it.

 

And as Sacre Bleu posted earlier in the thread

 

The 2015 European Referendum Act you mention could not allow for the referendum to be binding, as explained in the House of 2010 Lords Constitution Committee report on referendums"....because of the sovereignty of Parliament, referendums cannot be legally binding in the UK, and are therefore advisory. However, it would be difficult for Parliament to ignore a decisive expression of public opinion."

 

The High Court agreed with this assessment in 2016 stating "a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

The above facts can't simply be dismissed as 'pure nonsense'. With the greatest of respect, it sounds like you've chosen to believe what you want to believe. 

 

 

 

surely all the politicians that have gone against the democratic  23rd June 2016 vote results should also be summonsed to appear before the courts.

 To repeat my question - What charges would you bring against them?

 

It is just our MPs making and breaking the rules of democracy to suit themselves.

 

The majority of them should be kicked out for dereliction of duty.

 Which "rules of democracy" are they breaking, and how are they in dereliction of duty?

Edited by Davie P
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In my book the majority wins,folk can manipulate it in anyway they want .

 

It matters not which way anyone voted what really was important was to obey the results of the democratic vote and this of course as we all well know now is not the case.

 

Excuses ,excuses ,excuses is all we continue to hear.

 

Shame on all of them we should have been out by now and all the necessary deals ect in place .

 

It must be a national crime not to respect the will of the people !  

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It must be a national crime not to respect the will of the people !  

 

Westminster couldn't define what the will of the people was, is, or may be. They couldn't care less and they will only do one thing. They will only do as they please.

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Westminster couldn't define what the will of the people was, is, or may be. They couldn't care less and they will only do one thing. They will only do as they please.

 

 

We have regular General Elections: if enough people are unhappy with what our MPs get up to, they can vote in new ones.

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Westminster couldn't define what the will of the people was, is, or may be. They couldn't care less and they will only do one thing. They will only do as they please.

 

 

We have regular General Elections: if enough people are unhappy with what our MPs get up to, they can vote in new ones.

 

 

.....and they will, just as soon as they get the chance. Whether anything that isn't from the same pool stands though, is a whole other matter. Its the damage that been done, being done, and will be done before that time arrives that's most concerning.

 

At the end of the day though, elections only go so far. Elected representatives at any level can only do so much, and all too often its not of any real worth, when its the permanent civil servants who wield the greatest power and not them. Something we're seeing very ably demonstrated on an almost daily basis in our own beloved SIC. Civil servants leading politicians around by the nose is child's play, politicians blocking civil servants off at the pass, and sending them fleeing in a different direction is like the Somme, and very, very few of the elected have the stomach for that kind of fight.

 

The will of the people was/is pretty damn plain and obvious, its only those who disagree with it that have led to the indecision through chipping away at any and every chink they could find to thwart it being enacted. In many ways though the issue has moved on from that, to be one concerning the integrity of Parliament and whether it has the respect of the population, as there is much contemptible, insulting and disrespectful in admitting it was a decision they didn't want to/couldn't take, and asking the people in the first place by way of a referendum, then completely ignoring the result and horseing on just as they were anyway, as they didn't get the answer they hoped they'd scam out of the population.

Edited by Ghostrider
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Peterborough byelection result: Labour scrapes past Brexit party to hold seat
 
A strong showing for the Brexit Party, and Lib Dems, at the expense of the Tories and Labour

 

"Farage left the count through a backdoor minutes before the result was announced."

 

Part of me was hoping the Brexit Party would get in to see if they had any actual polices beyond anti-EU rhetoric

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