Brexit (merged threads)

[Davie P]

In a Europhile UK Parliament its hardly surprising that they get with whatever Brussels are selling this week, the problem arose, when they held a referendum which showed what the rest of us have suspected for a long time, that the UK population  is about as anti-EU as the UK Parliament is pro-EU. Consequently the argument that the UK Parliament's influence within the EU, and the UK Parliament's priority as far as the EU is concerned is the UK's population's influence and priorities is weak in the extreme.

 

Oh, the joys of holding votes on differing terms on the same subject relatively close together......add to the third vote involving the EU which we've just had returning roughly equal support for the Europhile parties, the anti-EU parties, and for two that seem to have no clue where they stand on the EU or anything else, and you have a right dog's dinner to wade through.

 

Indeed! And the joys of first-past-the-post polarised democracy!

 

You make a good point Ghostrider, but given the historic defeats in parliament for Brexit proposals I don't think there's much doubt as to where the parliamentary majority is. Certainly well beyond the 52/48 referendum split.

 

As JGHR alluded to over the page, perhaps its time to replace political rhetoric with fact based education, and introduce proportional representation and compulsory voting. Perhaps then we'd have an idea what people actually want and we'd never have to hear the phrase 'will of the people' again. Unless, of course, it was in reference to a verifiable fact!

Edited June 11, 2019 by Davie P

[JGHR]

 

What problem do you believe this would solve?

 

Not so long ago there was a Spanish fishing boat about a mile, perhaps a mile and a half offshore in St. Magnus Bay. It had its nets out, stripping the fish out of our waters.That's just one of many, many things that could [JGHR Emphasis] be solved. Then it would possibly be a bit more worthwhile to go out fishing.

 

You see George, that's the problem, could be solved - not would.

 

A lot of things could happen, but unfortunately most of them do not and the fishing is a case in point.  I am no expert on the EU fishing rules, but it is clear that the people who are, or should be, experts - the fishermen, despise the current situation and would do almost anything to see it changed. 

 

The problem is however the entire economic output of the UK fishing industry is tiny to the point that it is not significant in any material terms to the country as a whole - just over 1 tenth of 1 percent of the all UK economic output. <link will download a pdf for you to read>. It is of course hugely significant to fishing communities like Shetland the North East of Scotland, and Scotland as a whole, but as far as the people who are going to determine what happens post BREXIT are concerned it is as good as worthless.  That is why fishing rights to UK waters will almost certainly be bargained away and used as leverage in an attempt to gain more favorable outcomes in sectors of the economy which provide more economic value to the UK as a whole. The notion that voting for BREXIT, far less a no deal BREXIT will result in improved conditions in the UK fishing industry is far from certain and when you think about it objectively it appears incredibly unlikely.

 

Like Hilaire Belloc's boy named Jim, the fishing industry might well find instead of testing its fate in the jaws of the westminster lion it was better off keeping a hold of the EU nursemaid.

[George.]

The history of British democracy can be traced back to the Magna Carta in 1215 

 

Perhaps you could explain just how "British" the Magna Carta was, Davy?

[George.]

The problem is however the entire economic output of the UK fishing industry is tiny to the point that it is not significant in any material terms to the country as a whole - just over 1 tenth of 1 percent of the all UK economic output.

 

You are quite possibly correct in saying that that the fishing industry in the U.K. contributes 0.1% of the U.K. economic output. However, that is in no way correct regarding Scotland. That is in no way correct regarding Shetland. It is a worthwhile industry that contributes to the people.

 

But Westminster will strip us bare.

 

Johnson reveals plan to make Scots fund tax cut for rich in England

Edited June 11, 2019 by George.

[hakama]

TV LICENCE another gov. con. ?.

[Davie P]

 

The history of British democracy can be traced back to the Magna Carta in 1215 

 

Perhaps you could explain just how "British" the Magna Carta was, Davy?

 

 

Are you asking an actual question, trying to be rhetorical or just trolling?

 

Presumably you can google it or go to the library?

 

If you have a point to make then please do make it

[George.]

If you have a point to make then please do make it

 

The Magna Carta, as I'm sure you know, was a charter of liberties to which some English barons forced their king to give his assent to, in June 1215 at Runnymede. Nothing to do with Britain, only England. Five hundred years before Britain was ever heard of.

Edited June 11, 2019 by George.

[Davie P]

Yes, what is your point?

[paulb]

scotland did not have it.its not relevent to scotland. 

[Davie P]

Here's the quote that George removed the context from.

 

Geprge, I didn't say or imply that Britain was one of the first democracies. 'Democracy' as a defined principle of government has been been around since the ancient Greeks in the 7th century BCE. Many states have implemented (and often abandoned) it in various forms since then.

 

The history of British democracy can be traced back to the Magna Carta in 1215 with several key developments along the way - the establishment of the House of Commons in 1341, the the Civil War between King and Parliament in 1542, the extension of the franchise (i.e. those eligible to vote) in the mid 1800s beyond landowners and the wealthy in Scotland and England, and not until 1928 did women get the same voting rights as men.

 

Scotland was a fairly late adopter of democracy and had a relatively stable feudal lordship based parliamentary system that comprised nobility, clergy and landowners until the Act of Union in 1707. It wasn't until The Scottish Reform Act in 1832 that voting was extended from around 0.2% of males to around 13%, arguably making it a true form of democracy.

.

As Scotland adopted many of the post-union principles of democracy which evolved in England I believe it is fair to say that British democracy does indeed have its roots in the Magna Carta.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Davie P

[George.]

^It does come over as a very English statement. Of course, I may be wrong - but I wonder.....

[Davie P]

They're facts, George. And there's no need to 'wonder' - if you have a point to put to me then please do

[George.]

Scotland is a nation alone, and it has been stripped bare for the last 300 years.

 

Vote S.N.P.

Edited June 12, 2019 by George.

[Davie P]

I do vote SNP. Is that your point?

[Wheelsup]

I think you’ll find it’s not Scotland alone, as the entire working classes of the UK have been exploited for centuries. Ask a Cornishman or aYorkshireman. Some of the exploiters have been Scottish, as have been many leading politicians.

Time to get over this inferiority complex about the English. Scottish independence should be based on a modern evaluation of our needs and as soon as we get a more grown-up attitude from some independence advocates, then I for one would be happy to vote for independence. Especially as it would mean remaining part of the European family.