Brexit (merged threads)

[Davie P]

Just how much clearer could the wording of the referendum been then?  Honestly, you really couldn't get any clearer.  The problem is that May's BREXIT isn't BREXIT, it's a mish-mash.

 

The wording of the referendums was:

 

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

• Remain a member of the European Union
• Leave the European Union

---------------

 

Leave campaigners simultaneous floated numerous and often contradictory scenarios as to what 'leave' meant. A more accurate and actionable referendum question could have been:

• Remain a member of the European Union
• Leave the Europen Union
  • and remain a member of the European Economic Area (the Norway model)
  • and remain a member of the European Free Trade Association (The Switzerland model)
  • and remain a member of the Customs Union (the Turkey model)
  • and attempt to negotiate a Ceta free trade deal (the Canada model)
  • with no deal and default to World Trade Organisation rules

The 52% who voted 'leave' are spread across each of the above fundamentally different scenarios.

 

We are now left in the situation where people believe the Brexit scenario they envisaged, as opposed to the vague concept they actually voted on, is not being delivered..... whilst simultaneously claiming their envisaged scenario is 'the will of the people', and that this 'will' should out-rank UK democratic processes.

 

Personally, I'd have voted for the Norway or Switzerland model, but given the vagueness of the question, I voted to remain to avoid the inevitable 'will of the people' bun-fight we've ended up in.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

@DavieP - And the Remainers campaigned on Project Fear and still are doing.  Besides, the EU member states could collectively even now come together and decide that the UK could remain a member of the EEA, EFTA, etc.  The Gov. leaflet which encouraged us to vote remain stated that previous deals had not been done (coughs, anyone remember Greenland leaving the EEA) but that doesn't mean new deals couldn't have been struck.  We're a member of WTO both as the UK and also as a member of the EU.

So, who campaigned and predicted the backstop scenario then?

[mikeyboy]

 

 

However, the SNP was clear that Scotland would apply to become a member of the EU in the event of gaining independence from the UK.

 

 

Yes, but it was made clear by several member countries and acknowledged by Alex Salmond himself that this would be unlikely to succeed. However, whether Scotland rejoined or not, anyone who voted yes to Scottish Independence was voting to leave the EU. So, unless they have changed their mind about scottish independence, must have voted leave.

 

Just asking again have you got any citations? I am not aware of any EU countries expressly saying that Scotland could not join the EU.

[Urabug]

Of course the EU will welcome Scotland they want control of our fish and probably the oil and gas as well ,lets not forget the whisky industry.

[Colin]

Yes, but then we would have to dump the £ and take on the Euro !

[mikeyboy]

That is often quoted but not strictly true. I believe you have to work towards joining the Euro...

[Urabug]

Yes, but then we would have to dump the £ and take on the Euro !

Now that would be disaster .

 

Used it while on holiday and it is terrible,who ever designed coinage so horrible to use. 

[Davie P]

 

 

...We have to leave what ever it costs to regain or sovereigty

This is the kind of thing I find hard to grasp with Brexit, are these not sovereign nations?

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain and Sweden.

 

Yes correct probably all sovereign nations but can they execute their own sovereignty or are they like the UK being ruled from Brussels.

 

Any country that is a member of the EU is being controlled from Brussels, not fully self-governing..

 

Sovereignty---supreme power or authority.,a self-governing state.

 

 

Sovereign nations can join and leave voluntary agreements with other countries - the EU is a collection of agreements (and resultant compromises) we've entered into. The UK has a powerful position at the top table of the EU - it's not a bunch of foreigners who 'rule' us.

 

As a member of the EU we have the right to negotiate the terms of our membership. If we can't agree on the terms then we can leave and/or renegotiate new agreements. That's where we are now.

 

Unless we decide not to trade with European partners we will need to have agreements (and resultant compromises) in place. That's not us being 'ruled', that's us finding mutually beneficial partnerships. Hang on, that sounds a bit like the EU.....

[mikeyboy]

You said it Davie!

[George.]

^Yet more reason to return to the pound Scots

[Urabug]

The UK has 73 MEP's each earning something in the region of £73000,surely between the members of the House of Commons and Holyrood there are enough bodies to manage the affairs of the UK without the need for all this EU nonsense.

 

To have no requirement for MEP's would in it'self save a lot of money.

 

I want to trade with Europe meeting all there regulations and them meeting all our requirements but I certainly do not want to be controlled by them..

 

i do not want to share the same trough,we have our own. 

[Davie P]

I want to trade with Europe meeting all there regulations and them meeting all our requirements but I certainly do not want to be controlled by them..

 

So it would seem that we agree we need trade agreements.

 

But what do you specifically mean by being 'controlled by them'?

 

The UK has 73 MEP's each earning something in the region of £73000,surely between the members of the House of Commons and Holyrood there are enough bodies to manage the affairs of the UK without the need for all this EU nonsense.

 

To have no requirement for MEP's would in it'self save a lot of money.

 

So, we'll ditch the EU and all our established trade deals and ditch all the MEPs.

 

But we'll need new trade deals. Who will negotiate all those new trade deals now that we've ditched the MEPs?

 

Perhaps we'd be better to keep our seat at the top table of the EU and negotiate from a position of existing influence?

Edited December 8, 2018 by Davie P

[Urabug]

Michel Barnier the french chief negotiator has said "thats the deal take it or leave it "is that not being bullied and controlled by a foreign country.

 

Let our businessmen dispatch there own salesmen /women throughout the world and sell what they manufacture, surely they know more about the products than the politicians.

 

Our own businesses can negotiate and set up trade arrangements surely we do not require" toffee nosed " so called politicians to do it for us.

 

I personally can see little benefit  from remaining in the EU it is just an expensive club that we can well manage without, we did in the past and we can again.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Urabug

[MuckleJoannie]

 

 

 

However, the SNP was clear that Scotland would apply to become a member of the EU in the event of gaining independence from the UK.

 

 

Yes, but it was made clear by several member countries and acknowledged by Alex Salmond himself that this would be unlikely to succeed. However, whether Scotland rejoined or not, anyone who voted yes to Scottish Independence was voting to leave the EU. So, unless they have changed their mind about scottish independence, must have voted leave.

 

Just asking again have you got any citations? I am not aware of any EU countries expressly saying that Scotland could not join the EU.

 

Scottish independence: Barroso says joining EU would be 'difficult'

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963

[George.]

Scottish independence: Barroso says joining EU would be 'difficult'

Barroso said that nearly five years ago, is it still true? Was it true when the claims were made - or did Barroso do no more than show us that he was no more than a poor attempt to appear as a control merchant?