Windwalker Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 George, one of the key points of Brexit is the cessation of freedom of movement between the UK and EU countries. What do you want for 'proof' of that?And yet those wanting an independent Scotland remaining in the EU never mention there would be a border between Scotland and England and the same issues will arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 George, one of the key points of Brexit is the cessation of freedom of movement between the UK and EU countries. What do you want for 'proof' of that?And yet those wanting an independent Scotland remaining in the EU never mention there would be a border between Scotland and England and the same issues will arise. And they don't mention that remaining in the EU means giving up quite a bit of their so-called "independence" Windwalker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 George, one of the key points of Brexit is the cessation of freedom of movement between the UK and EU countries. What do you want for 'proof' of that?And yet those wanting an independent Scotland remaining in the EU never mention there would be a border between Scotland and England and the same issues will arise. Only if England was to leave the EU, and many assurances were made at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum that Scotland should remain a member of the UK in order to remain in the EU. A key choice for me, if and when independence gets back on the agenda, is whether a border with England or the EU is least bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 And they don't mention that remaining in the EU means giving up quite a bit of their so-called "independence" I can mention it if you want - I'm quite happy with making concessions in order to remain a member of the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windwalker Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 @Davie P. “A key choice for me, if and when independence gets back on the agenda, is whether a border with England or the EU is least bad.” An independent Shetland would be my choice, we’ve got a natural water border, but unfortunately I’m not convinced that we could go it alone, no more than I’m convinced that Scotland could. The EU would grab our fish, oil and charge us a fortune for the privilege. We would be left at their door with the begging bowl, completely at their beck and call. They have a proven record. Despite the vote against independence, it’s never been off the agenda, is Sturgen not considering launching it again shortly. Mind you maybe if the vote goes against her again, she will accept it, but some how I doubt it. Davie P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-GB&q=brexit+freedom+of+movement Goodness, very direct - to something or other. Reality, however....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) What is your point George? If you honestly believe that the loss of freedom of movement within the EU as a result of Brexit will not actually result in making free movement more problematic then please do point me in the direction of why you believe that. Thus far you have simply said there's no proof that it will, when the consensus of opinion, even among Brexit supporters, is that it will and it is the government's intention. Indeed, ending free movement in order to reduce immigration was a significant reason for many people voting for Brexit. Edited February 3, 2019 by Davie P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) ^ Davie, I personally believe that leaving the European Union would be the best thing ever, for both Shetland and Scotland as a whole. Doing so will reinforce our fishing industry - and many other things. However, to remain within what is now known as the E.U. would be farcical. Never forget just how farcical, and of course democratic (Haahaahaa), Anthony Eden, a Tory through and through, was when he inflicted the Treaty of the Functioning of The European Union upon us. that in itself kinda sez it all - dunnit. Having said that, the U.K. is a foreign country. Edited February 3, 2019 by George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 .... that in itself kinda sez it all - dunnit. I don't know what your point is or why you keep addressing me in your comments, so I'll just leave it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 ^ My point is as stated. Always the best way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capeesh Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) Democratic conundrum right there, Scotland voted to remain in both unions, it's now impossible to remain in both. A democrat would surely want to go to the polls to get clarity.Nah nah, we have already voted, we’ve had all the clarity we need. That’s democracy. This ‘lets keep going until they get the answer they want’ attitude is certainly not democracy. I voted to stay in both the UK and the EU but I fully accept the results of the vote. Now that’s democracy.Democracy doesn't stand still, if it did we'd always be stuck with the same government, democrats aren't afraid of votes. Edited February 3, 2019 by Capeesh Davie P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whalsa Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 @Davie P. “A key choice for me, if and when independence gets back on the agenda, is whether a border with England or the EU is least bad.” An independent Shetland would be my choice, we’ve got a natural water border, but unfortunately I’m not convinced that we could go it alone, no more than I’m convinced that Scotland could. The EU would grab our fish, oil and charge us a fortune for the privilege. We would be left at their door with the begging bowl, completely at their beck and call. They have a proven record. Despite the vote against independence, it’s never been off the agenda, is Sturgen not considering launching it again shortly. Mind you maybe if the vote goes against her again, she will accept it, but some how I doubt it. Full independence may well be a step too far for Shetland, certainly initially anyway. Meaningful self-governance/autonomy is perfectly realistic though. The EU couldn't "grab" our fish and oil, Faroe, Iceland and Norway manage to look after theirs quite well. The EU may grab our fish if an Independent Scotland joined the EU though. Shetland contributes vast sums to national finances but we get little back in return. We need to find an alternate form of Government otherwise we will be trapped in inevitable constant decline and our hard won oil reserves will disappear. Windwalker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 Full independence may well be a step too far for Shetland, certainly initially anyway. Meaningful self-governance/autonomy is perfectly realistic though. The EU couldn't "grab" our fish and oil, Faroe, Iceland and Norway manage to look after theirs quite well. The EU may grab our fish if an Independent Scotland joined the EU though. Shetland contributes vast sums to national finances but we get little back in return. We need to find an alternate form of Government otherwise we will be trapped in inevitable constant decline and our hard won oil reserves will disappear. Very true, and if Shetland went Indy then I would suspect that it would be in a much better position to look after itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ghostrider Posted February 3, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 Democratic conundrum right there, Scotland voted to remain in both unions, it's now impossible to remain in both.A democrat would surely want to go to the polls to get clarity.Nah nah, we have already voted, we’ve had all the clarity we need. That’s democracy. This ‘lets keep going until they get the answer they want’ attitude is certainly not democracy. I voted to stay in both the UK and the EU but I fully accept the results of the vote. Now that’s democracy.Democracy doesn't stand still, if it did we'd always be stuck with the same government, democrats aren't afraid of votes. Keeping on doing the same thing repeatedly hoping for a different result is a sign of something else though. I'm all for democracy, but if you re-run the same vote too close together that process begins to work against democracy by blocking progress. As a safeguard against preventing progress, voting again on the same subject IMHO should only happen on one or more of three grounds, the result was in dispute, significant material and/or circumstantial changes have occurred that could reasonably be expected to have altered the opinions of a notable percentage of those eligible to vote, or a period of time has elapsed that natural wastage/maturity has caused a turnover in those eligible to vote adequate to potentially produce a significantly different outcome. None of the above apply to calls to re-run the Brexit referendum, the only excuses put forth to support it is that a few are claiming they were too stupid/ignorant/lazy to know what they were voting for last time, and a few politicians patronisingly trying to tell the rest of us that we 'couldn't possibly understand' what was involved. To the former, all I can say is, your shortcomings aren't my f**king problem, you made your bed, so lie in it, and to the latter, all I can say is, do you understand either? As the monkey house antics in Holyrood, Westminster and Brussels on the subject ever since the vote, convinced me long ago you don't. Colin, Urabug, whalsa and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacre Bleu Posted February 4, 2019 Report Share Posted February 4, 2019 I'm all for democracy, but if you re-run the same vote too close together that process begins to work against democracy by blocking progress. As a safeguard against preventing progress, voting again on the same subject IMHO should only happen on one or more of three grounds, the result was in dispute, significant material and/or circumstantial changes have occurred that could reasonably be expected to have altered the opinions of a notable percentage of those eligible to vote, or a period of time has elapsed that natural wastage/maturity has caused a turnover in those eligible to vote adequate to potentially produce a significantly different outcome. I tend to agree with this assessment, and I believe that there has been a significant change in the information available to voters insomuch that it would be considered "significant material and/or circumstantial change" The fundamental problem was that Pro-Brexit politicians offered competing, contrary and detail-free visions of Brexit in order to gain support. The referendum question was a simplistic binary choice but the implementation has predictably proven to be a far from binary compromise as the detail has been worked out, given proper consideration and due diligence. Furthermore, polls indicate that there has been a material swing in opinion toward remain in the past two years e.g. https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-poll-predicts-swing-to-remain-in-second-brexit-vote/ So, regarding "blocking progress" - we have made little if any progress toward Brexit. If the majority of people are in favour of remaining, and we have not made any progress, I see no compelling reason why we should continue on the current Brexit trajectory. Personally, I don't agree with the principle of a 2nd referendum as I believe it is at odds to the functioning of the UK's representative democracy and I offer no solution beyond taking our foot off the accelerator and leaving it to parliament and a general election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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