Urabug Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 We are not controlled or ruled from Brussels. I would like to see some proof of that. So would I ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capeesh Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) ^^ Because if we were that would mean countries like Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the rest of the EU's nations aren't independent, which in my humble opinion is mental.They all share a little sovereignty in order to compete in a globalised world, the EU has definitely got issues but I don't see a huge clamour from any of the other member states to leave. Edited May 24, 2019 by Capeesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) ^Oh yes, we're all very independent. They all sneek in and strip our waters bare, but we're all independent. We contribute to the support that Greece, Estonia, Slovakia and the rest need but we're very independent. Remember just how democratic Anthony Eden was when he inflicted the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union upon us in 1957. Very independent, about as independent as earache. Having said that, the majority of people in the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union in 2016. If we don't get that it shows precisely how democratic and independent we really are. Edited May 24, 2019 by George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capeesh Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) ^...Oh yes, we're all very independent. They all sneek in and strip our waters bare... .They didn't sneak in, they were invited in by our own government in London and will continue to be invited in Brexit or not, they'll be bargained off in a heartbeat just like before. Edited May 24, 2019 by Capeesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 ^...Oh yes, we're all very independent. They all sneek in and strip our waters bare... .They didn't sneak in, they were invited in by our own government in London and will continue to be invited in Brexit or not, they'll be bargained off in a heartbeat just like before. Exactly. Access to fishing grounds was, is and will forever be a good bargaining chip whether we're in the EU or not. There's no guarantee that Westminster will prioritise a better deal for the UK fishing industry during the flurry of trade negotiations that take place if we do leave the EU. The government's "Fisheries and Brexit" briefing paper published a couple of weeks ago made this clear ".....access for EU vessels to UK waters and vice versa is likely to be part of any agreement reached with the EU, as part of a future relationship" The briefing paper also contains some extracts of consultations with the National Federation of Fishermen's Organisations re: the transition period until a replacement for the CFP can be agreed. "There is no escaping […] that the transitional agreement is a reverse and a humiliation for the UK on fishing. Annual decisions on quotas will be made next year by the EU with only a notional obligation to consult the UK, although much of the fish will be caught in UK waters and the UK is, by far, the largest net contributor to the pot of resources. Decisions made with the UK outside the room will apply to the UK, in their entirety, for the period of the transition." The briefing paper also links to an article published in The Conversation last year: "Fishing makes up a very small proportion of the UK’s GDP (about 0.05%) and is sometimes seen as relatively unimportant compared to other sectors of the economy." "....any moves to restrict access to UK waters after March 2019 would result in restrictions on UK access to EU markets in other sectors." "The idea that the EU would cede control over fisheries in full after March 2019 was always unlikely...... The government should be wary of making further promises to the fishing industry which cannot be guaranteed. The terms and conditions that the UK accepts for the relationship with the EU after the transition period may represent further disappointment for the UK fishing industry." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 (edited) ^...Oh yes, we're all very independent. They all sneek in and strip our waters bare... .They didn't sneak in, they were invited in by our own government in London and will continue to be invited in Brexit or not, they'll be bargained off in a heartbeat just like before. Now and again I see a Euroboat fishing in St. Magnus Bay, fishing about a mile offshore. Please justify. The Westminstorean winkers are not, in any way, my government. You may choose to pander to them but..... Exactly. Access to fishing grounds was, is and will forever be a good bargaining chip whether we're in the EU or not. There's no guarantee that Westminster will prioritise a better deal for the UK fishing industry during the flurry of trade negotiations that take place if we do leave the EU. In no way was it ever a bargaining chip. It was given away, as and when the Westminstorean winkers chose to. Very Anthony Eden. Of course, he was the bloke that inflicted the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union upon us. How democratic. Edited May 25, 2019 by George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capeesh Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 (edited) ^...Oh yes, we're all very independent. They all sneek in and strip our waters bare... . They didn't sneak in, they were invited in by our own government in London and will continue to be invited in Brexit or not, they'll be bargained off in a heartbeat just like before.Now and again I see a Euroboat fishing in St. Magnus Bay, fishing about a mile offshore. Please justify. The Westminstorean winkers are not, in any way, my government. You may choose to pander to them but.....I'm not going to justify the CFP or how our waters are policed, from what little I know or have heard from fishermen the whole thing needs scrapped and reworked and fishery patrols improved. I assume one of the main issues is fish don't adhere to border controls, they don't stay in one place so there's going to have to be some kind of agreement with our neighbours and decent policing to conserve fish stocks otherwise one country could fish to extinction while they're in their waters, leaving nothing for the rest.My point wasn't about the CFP though, it's more to do with the general trend of blaming Johnny Foreigner for the actions of our own government.EU boats in our waters = Our government invited them inKnife crime rises in England = Government slashed police numbers.Can't get a medical appointment = Underinvestment in the NHSYoung people can't get a house = The government sold off all our social housing and stopped building more.Can't get a decent job = Government policy plays a huge part.The list goes on and on and on.All these examples I have seen either the EU, EU nationals or people of ethnic minorities get the blame for. Edited May 25, 2019 by Capeesh thebfg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulb Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 eu groups of fishingboat chase off our boat.that happens daily. just look on a boat tracking site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 Exactly. Access to fishing grounds was, is and will forever be a good bargaining chip whether we're in the EU or not. There's no guarantee that Westminster will prioritise a better deal for the UK fishing industry during the flurry of trade negotiations that take place if we do leave the EU. In no way was it ever a bargaining chip. It was given away, as and when the Westminstorean winkers chose to. Very Anthony Eden. Of course, he was the bloke that inflicted the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union upon us. How democratic. This would indicate you don't have a grasp of the situation, or the developments that preceded it. The CFP is an imperfect compromise introduced to attempt to protect both the economic interests of the partner nations and fish stocks. Until the middle of the last century nations had relatively unrestricted access to each others waters, and there were few restrictions on catches. The mechanisation of the fishing industry and dwindling fish stocks saw nations adopt a more protectionist stance (e.g. the Cod Wars and NATOs involvement in negotiations) that resulted in the end of the 'open waters' principle, and many countries declared exclusion zones, usually 200 miles from their coast. Since then we have been involved in ongoing negotiations as to who has access to each others' waters and what can be caught. The CFP is just the current agreement. Note that these negotiations preceded us joining the EU and would continue if we left. Because EU states are our largest export market for fish then it is likely that we would negotiate access to our waters in exchange for access to their market. We would likely adopt legislation re: protection of fish stocks too. All-in-all, symbolically scrapping the current agreements in order to negotiate new agreements that fulfil the same functions seems needless. Maintaining our position of influence within the EU to reform the CFP would seem to be the most pragmatic solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George. Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 (edited) ^I notice that you say one thing in particular: Maintaining our position of influence within the EU to reform the CFP would seem to be the most pragmatic solution. We were asked to vote in 2016 by Prime Minister David Cameron regarding whether we should stay in the E.U or leave. We voted to leave. If that doesn't happen then the Westminstorean winkers have shown us clearly what reality really is. If we maintain our position of influence within the E.U, it will make one thing very clear. It proves that the Wastemonster is only too willing to do what it likes - and only what it likes - regardless. The southend scabs couldn't spell "Democracy", never mind define it. Edited May 25, 2019 by George. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 Your name calling doesn't help George. It feels a little silly to be discussing such important matters with someone using playground insults. I don't wish to go through all this again, but to summarise.....parliament calls a non-binding referendumthe result is duly considered by parliamentno majority decision on how to progress is reached, therefore status quo continuesParliament is sovereign, that's how our representative democracy is set up, like it or not. We elect MPs, they make decisions. If you wish to debate how our democratic processes could be changed then lets do that, but claiming our democratic processes aren't democratic is factually wrong. If you don't think our current system of representative democracy serves the best interests of the population then perhaps you could suggest an alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabug Posted May 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 (edited) The UK territorial waters are very important and as we all know contribute millions of pounds into the economy every year (probably every day). Here in the UK we must protect this valuable asset and not allow every Tom ,Dick or Harry to help themselves. Do we in the UK get a proportionment say in the vine yards of any of the European countries, I might want to produce my own wine,grow my own nuts ect. What is very important is that our "authorities" here in the UK are able to control who has access to our waters without the EU's intervention. Listen to our fishermen and those in the fishing business ,they are the ones who catch the fish and process them and are in the best position to know what is best . When we are out of the EU then much is possible,at the moment the UK is like a tethered cow that can only graze where allowed. Edited May 25, 2019 by Urabug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie P Posted May 25, 2019 Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 Urabug, I agree with the spirit of your post, and the CFP requires a root and branch overhaul, but you paint a very idealised picture of the future. The UK government has sovereign control of our waters. They choose to allow other countries access as part of wider trade agreements, which also includes the UK having access to other countries waters and markets. There is no indication that this situation will change just because we leave the EU. For example, "The EU is the main export market for UK fish and fisheries products accounting for 70% of UK fisheries exports by value. Valued at £1.3 billion, this trade far exceeds the £980m value of fish landed in the UK, due to the added value from the processing sector. Some of the remaining 30% of exports that go to countries outside of the EU are governed by trade agreements negotiated by the EU that reduce trade barriers. So the single market, and additional trade agreements, are crucial to the success of the UK fishing industry." [source] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabug Posted May 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 And of course our MP's have had nearly 3 yrs to negotiate more additional trade agreements necessary for an organised exit from the EU, but most have chosen to bicker and argue between themselves rather than do what the country voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ghostrider Posted May 25, 2019 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 25, 2019 (edited) Your name calling doesn't help George. It feels a little silly to be discussing such important matters with someone using playground insults. I don't wish to go through all this again, but to summarise.....parliament calls a non-binding referendumthe result is duly considered by parliamentno majority decision on how to progress is reached, therefore status quo continuesParliament is sovereign, that's how our representative democracy is set up, like it or not. We elect MPs, they make decisions. If you wish to debate how our democratic processes could be changed then lets do that, but claiming our democratic processes aren't democratic is factually wrong. If you don't think our current system of representative democracy serves the best interests of the population then perhaps you could suggest an alternative? In addition to the referendum result, the head honchos at the time before the fact 'promised' the result would be respected and implemented, and not only that, a General Election was held for which party manifestos and individual candidates 'promised' to ensure the referendum result was respected and implemented. Yet three years later everything any one of them has done is to put on the table things which do neither, so is it any wonder democracy is called in to question. At least with a dictator you get what you get and have to put up with it, when folk repeatedly promise to do one thing so that they can pay lip service to being 'democratically' elected to deliver it, yet continue to do the other, its fraudulent and duplicitous and makes an entire mockery to the 'democracy' they're hiding behind. Parliament by default admitted that they were incapable of settling the EU membership question when they put it out to a referendum in the first place - Referendums are nothing but an exercise in passing the buck to let a Government off the hook on prickly subjects, as whatever way it goes they get to blame 'the people' for the outcome. If Parliament believed for one moment they could come to a decision on whatever subject by themselves, 'the people' would never be asked. By taking back control over the decision making process and trying to 'modify' the referendum outcome to something that is nearer to acceptable for a pro-EU parliament, they've gone and created a monster from which there is no escape until and unless Parliament admits defeat and action the referendum result in letter and in spirit. Meantime, everything goes down the tubes while they bicker.......the only consolation is that it is political careers and parliament itself that are taking the first and hardest hits, rather than the nation and the population. There is a certain twisted satisfaction in seeing those who oppose Joe Public loudest and most forcefully taken down by their own sword as a result of a plan of their own making - especially those who only got in to that position by pretending to be on Joe Public's side. Edited May 25, 2019 by Ghostrider George., Davie P, Urabug and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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