Brexit (merged threads)

[Urabug]

A little bit more excitement tomorrow/Monday when the results of the European election are announced, think we have a good idea what the results will be 

[George.]

Parliament is sovereign, that's how our representative democracy is set up, like it or not. We elect MPs, they make decisions.

 

It would, of course, be interesting to see some proof regarding your statement, Davy. To say, "parliament is sovereign" kinda suggests just how democratic the southend scabs really are.

[Davie P]

Are you really asking me for proof of how our representative democracy works, or are you just trolling? Your continued use of childish insults suggests the later.

[Davie P]

In addition to the referendum result, the head honchos at the time before the fact 'promised' the result would be respected and implemented, and not only that, a General Election was held for which party manifestos and individual candidates 'promised' to ensure the referendum result was respected and implemented. Yet three years later everything any one of them has done is to put on the table things which do neither, so is it any wonder democracy is called in to question.

 

At least with a dictator you get what you get and have to put up with it, when folk repeatedly promise to do one thing so that they can pay lip service to being 'democratically' elected to deliver it, yet continue to do the other, its fraudulent and duplicitous and makes an entire mockery to the 'democracy' they're hiding behind.

 

Of the main parties, Labour seem to have been the main swingers. I genuinely have no idea where they really stand on the issue.

 

Conservatives have been consistently pro leave but can't agree on what flavour of Brexit they want, but the Lib Dems, SNP and Greens have all been consistent in their opposition to leaving.

 

An interesting development is the rise of the 'hard Brexit' stance and support for crashing out of Europe with no deal. No party campaigned on that pledge during the referendum but many Brexiteers now claim that's what people voted for.

 

IMHO, that's the fundamental problem. The referendum question was more philosophical than practical - the government should have presented more definitive and detailed options than a binary leave/remain choice. Post referendum, it went back to Parliament to decide what leave meant in practical terms, with leave supporting politicians claiming the version of leave they prefer is what people voted for.

[George.]

^^ No, I'm not asking you to prove that your supposed democracy works. No, I'm not asking you to prove that your supposed democracy does anything that is in any way democratic.

 

We were asked to vote. In that we were given the opportunity to either remain in the European Union or leave. Since then the remoaners have whinged and whinged about what they want, for whatever reason, and regardless to what the common man wanted, and showed by voting. Whether the remoaners get their way or not, I cannot claim to know but that suggests just how democratic Britain is.

 

It also shows clearly how democratic the whinging remoaners are. It shows just how democratic the Wastemonster really is.

 

Never pander to the Westminstorean winkers, every one of them shows just how democratic they allow Britain to be. Yet more proof that James VI got it very, very wrong. That and Vallum Hadriani should have been built ten times higher, and should still be retained for the job that it was built for.

Edited May 26, 2019 by George.

[hakama]

I agree with you George / We live in a dictatorship as to the common person it makes little dfifference who is in power / They are clever I will give them that as they with elections lead us to believe that we live in a democracy / And most of us fall for it.

[Davie P]

George, the government set the rules for the referendum (the European Union Referendum Act 2015) which was clear that the result of the referendum did not have to be enacted. 

 

If the government had wished the referendum to be binding, they should have included that provision, but they didn't and here we are.

 

Therefore it came back to parliament, and our democratically elected MPs, to take the result of the referendum into consideration, along with all the other factors, when deciding on the best way forward. If the result of the referendum had shown a large majority one way or the other, I expect it would have been given more weight in the subsequent discussions. However, when the details of the various leave scenarios was worked through it became increasingly clear that it wasn't as simple as the leave campaign had promised.

 

It would be fundamentally undemocratic to go back and change the rules of the referendum and bypass parliament. The tories tried that but were pulled up in the High Court.

 

I'm vexed for people who feel disenfranchised by the referendum, but the rules were set and the dice was thrown.

 

Insulting people who don't share your opinion won't change the facts.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Davie P

[George.]

^It gets worse and worse here, if what you say is correct, Davy,

 

If the government had wished the referendum to be binding, they should have included that provision, but they didn't and here we are.

 

We were given the impression that if we chose to remain then remain we would. We were also encouraged to believe that if we voted to leave then leave we would. What you have just said shows them to be lying con artists. We get to vote and they get to do as they please. 

 

Yet more suggestion put forward that the Wastemonster is no more than a scab on the @rse of Scotland, but pander all you wish to the Westminstorean winkers.

 

I kinda think that I'll carry on voting Indy. Never pander to a scab, a lying con artist scab. You find a lot of them down there.

Edited May 26, 2019 by George.

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

@Davie P - The Government also adopted into UK law that we would leave on 29 March 2019 with or without a deal.  Why else do you think there is currently legal action filed in the High Court, a Judicial Review is going to take place as to whether or not the extension was legal?

[Davie P]

^It gets worse and worse here, if what you say is correct, Davy,

 

If the government had wished the referendum to be binding, they should have included that provision, but they didn't and here we are.

 

We were given the impression that if we chose to remain then remain we would. We were also encouraged to believe that if we voted to leave then leave we would. What you have just said shows them to be lying con artists. We get to vote and they get to do as they please. 

 

That's a fair summary. There was a massive amount of disinformation circulated and undeliverable promises made.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Davie P

[George.]

^And I would bet my bottom Yankie dollar that the massive amount of disinformation circulated and undeliverable promises made were primarily made by those and such as those that inhabit the Wastemonster. Kinda tells us a lot, dunnit. Britain is no democracy, it never has been and no doubt it never will be.

 

Rather than living in Britain I think that I'll continue to live at home. Then Westminster needs to have a relevant passport with them before they can get anywhere near.

[Davie P]

@Davie P - The Government also adopted into UK law that we would leave on 29 March 2019 with or without a deal.  Why else do you think there is currently legal action filed in the High Court, a Judicial Review is going to take place as to whether or not the extension was legal?

 

It is a potentially interesting case, but the original act that set the exit date had a mechanism allowing a change of date, and on 27th March parliament voted on the amendment to extend it.

 

I'm not sure on what grounds the Judicial Review is progressing. Any links Suffererof1crankymofo?

[Suffererof1crankymofo]

@ Davie P - Except Theresa May didn't have the legal right to change the date to that agreed with the EU.  As for links, this is reported little in the press but if you go back through the various posts a few pages on the English Democrats' website, it would appear that it's at the stage where the Defendant has replied.  There's this link, however, which indicates hearing is a few weeks away:-

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1128570/brexit-news-article-50-extension-robin-tilbrook-theresa-may-high-court-case

[Ghostrider]

 

In addition to the referendum result, the head honchos at the time before the fact 'promised' the result would be respected and implemented, and not only that, a General Election was held for which party manifestos and individual candidates 'promised' to ensure the referendum result was respected and implemented. Yet three years later everything any one of them has done is to put on the table things which do neither, so is it any wonder democracy is called in to question.

 

At least with a dictator you get what you get and have to put up with it, when folk repeatedly promise to do one thing so that they can pay lip service to being 'democratically' elected to deliver it, yet continue to do the other, its fraudulent and duplicitous and makes an entire mockery to the 'democracy' they're hiding behind.

 

Of the main parties, Labour seem to have been the main swingers. I genuinely have no idea where they really stand on the issue.

 

Conservatives have been consistently pro leave but can't agree on what flavour of Brexit they want, but the Lib Dems, SNP and Greens have all been consistent in their opposition to leaving.

 

An interesting development is the rise of the 'hard Brexit' stance and support for crashing out of Europe with no deal. No party campaigned on that pledge during the referendum but many Brexiteers now claim that's what people voted for.

 

IMHO, that's the fundamental problem. The referendum question was more philosophical than practical - the government should have presented more definitive and detailed options than a binary leave/remain choice. Post referendum, it went back to Parliament to decide what leave meant in practical terms, with leave supporting politicians claiming the version of leave they prefer is what people voted for.

 

 

What any party campaigned for pre-Brexit is wholly irrelevant, The question on the ballot was to "leave" or to "remain", and that's what folk voted for, (or those with an adequate grasp of the English language an of average intelligence) should have known they were voting for. There has been no 'rise' in the 'hard Brexit' stance/support, other than from the folk who believed that was what they voted for, and presumed anyone else voting know that they were voting for, not being respected and delivered.

 

The questions asked in the referendum choices were entirely practical, either you're a full member of a club, or you're not a member at all. UNLESS you negotiate some sort of 'Special Relationship' status with that club, which requires both sides starting off with a blank slate and going from there, NOT both sides attempting to cherry pick from the corpse of full membership as the Westminster approach has been.

 

The UK was forced to terminate numerous agreements and associations worldwide to attain EEC membership, and was forced in to many more with the EEC for the same reason. That all happened in the run up to '73, and nobody died, reversing the situation can be done as easily in the present, IF the political will is there to make it happen, which clearly there isn't with the lot in charge right now.

[Davie P]

^And I would bet my bottom Yankie dollar that the massive amount of disinformation circulated and undeliverable promises made were primarily made by those and such as those that inhabit the Wastemonster. Kinda tells us a lot, dunnit. Britain is no democracy, it never has been and no doubt it never will be.

 

There is depressing amount of disinformation coming from all angles! I enjoy political discussions but Brexit is unprecedented in the amount of nonsense and spin in circulation. IMHO social media has a big hand in that - people can choose what they want to believe, find sources of misinformation to back it up and their news feed will then be full of bruck that reinforces it. Such is the modern world.....