Brexit (merged threads)

[mikeyboy]

The “collateral damage” isn’t as a result of people voting to leave, it parliaments inability to agree a deal with the EU. I think if anyone is to blame, it’s our incompetent MPs who after 3 years could not get a deal agreed.

 

The time and effort they have spent arguing with each other rather than with the EU has got us where we are.

 

Of course you could also say that it’s the remainers fault as they have done their best to try and stop the will of the people at every turn.

 

 

You could say that but you would be wrong.

[Capeesh]

 

There's two sides to any negotiation, there was no way the EU would budge on their four freedoms or the legislation any country, whether in the EU or EFTA, have to abide by for single market access. Those are their red lines.

They've made that abundantly clear right from the very start, even before the referendum.

 

Which proves that those who voted leave knew full well (or could and should have known) precisely what they were voting for, a no deal exit from the EU.

Nope, they could've delivered the Brexit result, left the EU and maintained access to the single market like Norway and the other EFTA countries.That's what the leave campaign were selling at the time, it's the option that would've caused the least damage.

The Tory government alone took that option off the table, not the EU.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Capeesh

[Davie P]

Sorry had to go to a meeting!

 

I don't think it is patronising to say that people believed lies because people did believe the lies and still do. Often stuff that was debunked years ago is still quoted so obviously this is that case.

 

I agree with your view on the differences between those that voted. Which is why it is really unhelpful to see this constant emotive them and us rhetoric on social media and in certain papers. 

 

I just personally can not see how the UK will be better off outside the EU.

 

Agreed.

 

We were told that Brexit would bring untold benefits to the UK and that we'd be able to pick and choose which bits of EU membership we wished to retain. We were warned from many quarters that Brexit would be a complex issue to resolve, but were told by the 'Leave' politicians it would be easy. 

 

Many people didn't either didn't see the benefit of leaving the EU or didn't believe the rhetoric and voted for the status quo in the referendum, others did believe it and voted to leave.

 

Since the vote, the utopian Brexit vision has proven to be undeliverable through a combination of 'unforeseen circumstances' which should have been thoroughly investigated before the referendum (the Irish backstop and the complexity of much of the legislation, for example), the EU understandably sticking to their negotiating guns and the government being unable to find a consensus or even a majority for one of the many flavours of Brexit that was promised.

 

Now the very people who set this train in motion are blaming those who didn't want it in the first place for not getting on board and supporting the increasingly extreme vision and attempts to circumvent laws and parliamentary processes (however, our governmental executive and the legislature branches, and independent judiciary, seem to be holding up relatively well in the face of these attempts).

[mikeyboy]

Just to be clear.

I agree with this bit the rest is nonsense.

 

"The only real difference of opinion between your average leave and remain voter is that a leave voter believes that the 'collateral damage' in the short term created by leaving will be more than compensated for by the longer term benefits of being rid of Brussels, while the remain voter believes the collateral damage is unreasonable and we will be worse off out than in."

[Windwalker]

@Windwalker

I beg to differ. There's two sides to any negotiation, there was no way the EU would budge on their four freedoms or the legislation any country, whether in the EU or EFTA, have to abide by for single market access. Those are their red lines.

They've made that abundantly clear right from the very start, even before the referendum.

The UK government has been trying and failing because what they're looking for is unacceptable to the 27 other member states of the EU.

Every compromise makes us worse off than if we remained members, we knew this before the referendum, If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be an EU, nobody would want to join, everybody would leave, it's so obvious I feel silly even typing it. No wonder parliament's been struggling with it, it's a lose, lose situation.

Vote to leave = worse off = collateral damage.

Blaming remainers is a cop out and music to Boris Johnsons ears, any deal which inflicted the least damage would've passed parliament no probs if they had tried it at the start, it would also in all likelihood been an acceptable compromise for most remain voters but the Tories alone took any kind of soft Brexit off the table because they've been pandering to looneys in their own party like Rees-Mogg and the ERG

they won’t budge, because they had the upper hand in the negotiations from the start, and they see no reason to offer anything better, due to the way the uk have handled the negotiations. The UK has made a backside if this since Cameron first went to the EU looking for some changes, the EU refused and before we knew it our future membership of the EU was at the ballot box.

 

Since then our government had continued to handle this badly, be it the Moggs, Johnson, May, Corbyn, Sturgeon and many more.

 

People were asked to vote, based on the information at the time. To lay the blame at the doors of those who chose leave is unfair.

[Urabug]

Boris can see quite clearly that putting forward anymore suggestions to the EU is pointless and that would only contribute to the debate going on and on and on gaining nothing.

 

The United States of Europe will give us no more concessions,they hold the strings and we are the puppets.

 

The UK will have to beg and bow to what ever the EU has to offer whether we like it or not ,this obviously suits many but not us all.

 

There is absolutely no need for all this bull**it for us to trade satisfactorily with one another,I do not have deals or contracts with the local shops that I go and trade with  almost daily..

 

Some of us want to trade freely with everyone ,but not tied to a regime in which we have little say.We are supposed to have our own parliaments to make and break rules so why add another.

 

The only reason brexit is undeliverable is because our elected politicians do not want to carry it through.

[mikeyboy]

Really what did Cameron not get?

 

The Brexit process has been driven by the Tory party the blame lies squarely at their door

[Windwalker]

 

The “collateral damage” isn’t as a result of people voting to leave, it parliaments inability to agree a deal with the EU. I think if anyone is to blame, it’s our incompetent MPs who after 3 years could not get a deal agreed.

 

The time and effort they have spent arguing with each other rather than with the EU has got us where we are.

 

Of course you could also say that it’s the remainers fault as they have done their best to try and stop the will of the people at every turn.

 

 

 

You could say that but you would be wrong.

And I likely agree with you on that as I voted remain, but I was making the point that those that voted leave are no more to blame.

 

Parliament dragged the people into this situation and in my opinion it backed fired on them as the vote didn’t go as they expected. Some people voted with their heads, other with their hearts based on the information, including many truths and lies, put to them at the time.

 

Three years later we are where we are with the constant political bickering which is causing this country greatly. As far as I’m concerned no voter is to blame, but if you have to apportion blame for the current situation I would lay thus at the doors of some if our politicians.

[Windwalker]

Really what did Cameron not get?

 

The Brexit process has been driven by the Tory party the blame lies squarely at their door

Yes Cameron started this, but the whole if parliament agreed to proceed

[mikeyboy]

 

Really what did Cameron not get?

 

The Brexit process has been driven by the Tory party the blame lies squarely at their door

Yes Cameron started this, but the whole if parliament agreed to proceed

 

I am asking you what changes the EU refused to give to Cameron?

[Windwalker]

I cannot recall from memory other than I remember news items about him going to the eu, but I’m sure there ones on here who can. Look it up, I might when I have time

[Urabug]

Really what did Cameron not get?

 

The Brexit process has been driven by the Tory party the blame lies squarely at their door

Strange i though all agreements had to be voted on by all parties,why did "the deal" fail three times 

 

I suppose to many the SNP, Libs, Labour  and all the other parties would have come up with something better .

 

Lets remember who is calling the tune here and it might seem like a UK political party was in charge but IMHO it was the EU representatives who were in charge  all the way through and still are.

 

It would not have made one iota of differ which party was negotiating ,but someone more "powerful" than May would have got us there a lot quicker .

 

If the EU wants us to leave they just have to push us out and close the door ,but there is no sign of that, no they need somewhere for there boats to fish !

[mikeyboy]

Just asking you to explain your comment. At the time I remember it being in the papers that he was rebuffed but when I looked into it that didn't seem to be the case. Of course he didn't get everything he wanted but that is negotiations for you.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

[Windwalker]

From memory he made a number of requests at the EU reform bill and won some and lost some, if I recall correctly, in order to appease the hard left of the party who felt the EU hadn’t bent enough, he made a promise to hold a referendum, something he did not have to do. Again if I remember correctly the main issue was to do with free movement.

 

The rest is history.

[mikeyboy]

 

Really what did Cameron not get?

 

The Brexit process has been driven by the Tory party the blame lies squarely at their door

Strange i though all agreements had to be voted on by all parties,why did "the deal" fail three times 

 

I suppose to many the SNP, Libs, Labour  and all the other parties would have come up with something better .

 

Lets remember who is calling the tune here and it might seem like a UK political party was in charge but IMHO it was the EU representatives who were in charge  all the way through and still are.

 

It would not have made one iota of differ which party was negotiating ,but someone more "powerful" than May would have got us there a lot quicker .

 

If the EU wants us to leave they just have to push us out and close the door ,but there is no sign of that, no they need somewhere for there boats to fish !

 

The Tories with their DUP allies had a majority! So obviously didn't all vote for Mays deal.

The other parties may have come up with a better deal but never got a chance. Come to think of it the SNP proposal was pretty good.

What you expect the EU 27 to roll over and give the UK whatever it wants? Maybe you did as that is what Gove etc promised that this would be the easiest deal ever done.

Someone more " powerful " , now we just needed to take the negotiations seriously.

When did the EU say they wanted us to leave? 

As for fishing do you honestly think that is all what this is about?

But then you maybe do as you think International trade is as easy as nipping to Tesco.