Brexit (merged threads)

[Ghostrider]

^^Anybody can google EU citizenship and find out what it means. You said the term doesn't exist when it clearly does, for a split second I wondered why then decided it didn't really matter, it's the benefits of being an EU citizen (or whatever you want to call it) that mattered to me.

"Citizenship is the status of a person recognized under the custom or law of a sovereign state (A sovereign state in international law is a political entity that is represented by one centralised government that has sovereignity over a geographic area).......

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship

 

What you're referring to are generally described as rights or benefits of EU membership.

[Ghostrider]

 

Shetlink needs more people, Christ knows how you bring them in or bring old users back.

 

If Christ knows, why will he no tell us?

 

Because he only speaks in 2000 year old hebrew.

[tarsus]

He spoke Aramaic.

[George.]

This is how echochambers naturally form and if you look at our institutions and groups all over western civilization you will see more ideological homogeneity and stark clashes when any dissenting view is seen.

 

Echo chamber, modal window or both, distorted by choice?

 

Regardless, firms warn of problems as new EU trade rules kick in, but that's the B.B.C. for you, or so it seems?

 

Don't like this myself, but those and such as those.............

Edited January 8, 2021 by George.

[Davie P]

What are the Brexit supporters here on Shetlink thinking about the deal? What are you happy and/or not-so-happy about?

[NullVoid]

Echo chamber, modal window or both, distorted by choice?

 

Instead of arguing back or trying to win over the opponent there is a greater tendency to just go our own separate ways rather than agree to disagree so we get more echochambers especially among partisan lines.

Not even singling out any particular group because you can find examples on all sides of the aisle in most cases just seems like people are getting more thin skinned across all society and those who aren't always seem to frighten everyone else nowadays.

[Muckle Oxters]

Demands for urgent support after Shetland fishing fleet left ‘bitterly disappointed’ by Brexit agreement

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2021/01/16/demands-for-urgent-support-after-shetland-fishing-fleet-left-bitterly-disappointed-by-brexit-agreement

Onybody surprised by yun headline?!

[Ghostrider]

If the fishing industry was expecting the Government to do everything for them so that their trade with Europe continued seamlessly through and after Jan. 1st. Then, no. Its the only viable headline that could have come out of it all. As we already know no UK Government, either regional or national is capable of doing the pith up in the brewery thing, ever.

Personally, if I'd been involved in an industry that pre Brexit relied significantly on trade with the EU to thrive, I'd have been operating on the presumption for the last four years that come 2021 there was going to be zero trade with EU nations, and doing my utmost to source and secure alternative outlets for sales in non-EU nations. Whatever was still able to be exported to the EU after the Government was done with their cock ups in the arrangements would be a bonus, not the mainstay. But that's just me.

 

[Capeesh]

^The EU don't  just trade with themselves, EU members trade with the rest of the world as well, (on very beneficial terms, one of the many advantages we lost by leaving the largest and richest trading bloc in the world), that's why, when we were members, we already sold seafood globally.

The massive, lucrative market is the one on our doorstep, 100's of millions of relatively well off people who are willing to pay a premium to get their seafood fresh.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Capeesh

[BigMouth]

Is Scottish Independence and rejoining the EU the way forward now?

We were told by Boris that the only way to stay in the EU was to remain in the UK.  That hasn't happened.  Perhaps there is still no appetite for Scottish independence in Shetland.  Perhaps people in the fishing industry and out of it are happy to wait for an independent Shetland?

I would genuinely be interested to know what people think.

[Evil Inky]

12 hours ago, Ghostrider said:

Personally, if I'd been involved in an industry that pre Brexit relied significantly on trade with the EU to thrive, I'd have been operating on the presumption for the last four years that come 2021 there was going to be zero trade with EU nations, and doing my utmost to source and secure alternative outlets for sales in non-EU nations. Whatever was still able to be exported to the EU after the Government was done with their cock ups in the arrangements would be a bonus, not the mainstay. But that's just me.

 

It's almost as if Brexit wasn't a very good idea in the first place, isn't it?

[Rasmie]

I am not surprised by the problems so far discovered with Brexit. It was inevitable and may well have been a huge mistake. However I'm sure that Boris and the Brexiteers will do well out of it whatever.

When Scotland becomes independent, they will need to have a referendum on joining the EU, and I'm not convinced that the majority will go for it. A hard border with England would probably be even worse for companies in the Central Belt.

[Ghostrider]

8 hours ago, Evil Inky said:

It's almost as if Brexit wasn't a very good idea in the first place, isn't it?

How do you figure that from what I wrote?

Expecting Governments to hand you everything on a plate isn't a good idea, and Governments themselves are only a good idea in very limited doses as infrequently as possible.

If you want a job done right, you do it yourself.

Brexit was to get rid of one layer of government, the good from that divorce will come in time, as it'll take time to unravel everything thats come about from being trapped for 50 years down the EU rabbit hole and get things put back on an even keel again.

Staying in the EU was not an option, things would only have continued to get worse, and leaving was always going to have a few bumps in the road for the first year or two, I'm pretty sure I've said as much probably more than once on this thread previously. So, this is one of the bumps..... Suddenly doing something very different than you've done for 50 years, its unreasonably to expect anything else

We'll be much better for it when everything settles down again though. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

[MuckleJoannie]

I suspect a lot of people thought we would get rid of those Brussels bureaucrats and foreign fishing boats but everything else would carry on as before.

[Ghostrider]

13 hours ago, Capeesh said:

^The EU don't  just trade with themselves, EU members trade with the rest of the world as well, (on very beneficial terms, one of the many advantages we lost by leaving the largest and richest trading bloc in the world), that's why, when we were members, we already sold seafood globally.

The massive, lucrative market is the one on our doorstep, 100's of millions of relatively well off people who are willing to pay a premium to get their seafood fresh.

EU members trade with the rest of the world on terms agreed between the EU and the other nation involved. The terms agreed between the EU and another nation were seldom favourable to UK interests.

EU members trade with each other on terms agreed by the EU. The terms, or at least how they worked out in practice, were seldom favourable to UK interests.

That, is a good part of why we chose to leave.

One of the underpinning (alleged) policies of the EEC/EU was that those regions who could provide products the most efficiently would become the primary producer of that commodity for the bloc, and that any region who also provided that product, but less efficiently/more expensively would be incentiveised to diversify or their sales compensated if they couldn't.

Excellent idea, but. In the late 70's it became cheaper to import European coal than produce our own, most of our mines closed and miners became unemployed en masse. Did the EEC do anything, did they heck.

Since then UK dairy farmers have gone out of business hand over fist on account of it being cheaper to import Belgian and French milk than produce it in the UK. UK beef farmers have struggled due to being undercut by Irish beef imports.

Neither of these should have been possible, in terms of climate and soil fertility southern England, France and Belgium are quite similar, raw materials costs and labour should also be quite similar, *if* the EU 'level playing field' mantra was working and/or being enforced, and unfair competition rules similarly adhered to.

I don't know which of the above were to blame, but either the plan doesn't work or rules were ignored to achieve the outcome. Regardless, did the EU step in and address the situation, did they heck. Did they assist the people involved to diversify, did they heck. They just sat back and ignored it.

A few years ago a significant proportion of smaller UK lamb, a proportion of it Shetland lamb, went to Italy. Then all of a sudden the trade vanished, they didn't want it any more. Turned out, allegedly, that the Romanians had undercut the UK on price and stolen the market. Again, *if* the EU mantra was being adhered to that shouldn't have happened, and if it did, the EU should have done something about it, but it did, and they didn't.

Again, going back to the original premise and ethos of the EEC that the region best suited to providing a product became the primary provider of that product to the bloc, as the UK had far and away the greatest area of sea and the vast majority of the most productive fishing grounds of the bloc, the UK should have become the primary seafood producers for the entire bloc. All of it caught by UK boats, and exported to the Continent, not as it turned out, that barely was Heath's signature dry on the agreement than Danes, French, Spaniards, Germans, Dutch are sundry others were making a bee line for here to scoop up as much as they could.

Boats of each nation should have been restricted to their own waters only, the only exception being if a nation had inadequate catching power of its own to take the available sustainable catch, they boats of other nations could have been given limited period licences to make up the deficit until the nation concerned could increase its own catching power. The concept of diversification and/or compensation should have been employed by the EU with regard to nations with catching power in excess of sustainable harvestable stock in their nations waters.

Instead the EEC/EU have fought to put as many boats of other EU nations in to UK waters to fish as they possibly can, and to add insult to injury paid UK owners to scrap perfectly sound and profitable boats and give up fishing while at the same time paying the Spaniards to create more effort to fish exactly the same waters.

If there are as many Continentals keen to buy seafood caught in UK waters as you claim, then they'd best start having a go at their own politicians if they want to get it. They're as much to blame for any holdups as Westminster, it takes two to tango. The industry may be losing on this side, but the wholesalers, shippers, processors, retailers and customers are all losing on their side too. If the numbers wanting to buy over there are as large as you say, they should soon get the current hiccup sorted if they all start shouting at their respective politicians at once.

My point though was leaving things up to Governments and politicians is a mugs game. The UK has known for four years that come 2021 we could bring live any export agreement with any non-EU nation we could agree whatever terms we liked with. No longer were we constrained by trading with non-EU nations on terms agreed via the EU only. We should have been concentrating on getting as many deals going, on terms agreeable to us, with as many non-EU nations as possible, so that if there was any hiccup with dealing with the EU, as there is now, its effect was minimal to us, as our produce already had alternative outlets.

Leaving the EU was always going to be a protracted round of mini hissy fits, petty sulks and moomin for tat spats, and nobody should have assumed, let alone relied upon the Chunnel door being open. If it was, fine, bonus, but plan for it not being was the only prudent stance for businesses reliant on cross channel trade.