Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election

[Davie P]

What you must remember Ghostrider is the fact that the SNP in their cynical fashion, have now given the vote to 16 year olds.

Why would they do this? Now some will say: "It's their futures." and that is true. However a 16 year old, most probably still at school, has no experience of the real world, and is far, far easier to impress than an adult. They can be manipulated and brainwashed by the SNP to vote for the fantastic future offered by Nicola when free of Westminster.

The brain isn't fully developed till the mid twenties and a 16 year old has never had any experience of income tax, council tax, rent, mortgages, house insurance, life insurance, house repair bills, heating costs, etc. etc. etc.

The last referendum had the SNP campaigning outside cinemas where "Braveheart" was being shown, (a historically inaccurate film), but one that will impress 16 year olds.

The vote was given to 16 year olds for cynical political reasons, and no other reason.

That is why the SNP will gain ground.

Sadly!

 

Labour, the Lib-Dems, Greens, SNP and Plaid Cymru, amongst other parties, all support votes for 16 year olds. The Conservatives and UKIP want to keep the age limit at 18, but the Scottish Conservatives support voting at 16.

[Claadehol]

Davie P It was a precedent set by the SNP in the independence referendum for purely cynical political reasons. Other parties felt obliged to fall in line...obviously!

[Davie P]

Ha! That's just not true! You're going to have to try a bit harder to turn this into a negative that you can lay at the SNP's door

 

The Scottish Referendum may have been the first (that I'm aware of) election in the UK that extended the franchise to 16 year olds, but it was done with cross party support.

 

Furthermore, many UK parties have supported the vote for 16 year olds for yonks, there have been many groups and political think tanks who have campaigned for it, and it's common in other countries.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Davie P

[Claadehol]

OK Davie, the referendum just happened to be the first, and all other parties were all for it of course. All thought the referendum was a great idea and fully supported the vote for 16 year old at that time. So that's the way it happened! 

Do you really believe that Davie?

[George.]

OK Davie, the referendum just happened to be the first, and all other parties were all for it of course.

 

I wonder just how for it the Tories and UKIP actually were? As you state, "All other parties were all for it of course."

[Davie P]

OK Davie, the referendum just happened to be the first, and all other parties were all for it of course. All thought the referendum was a great idea and fully supported the vote for 16 year old at that time. So that's the way it happened! 

Do you really believe that Davie?

 

I don't 'believe' it, I'm going by MSP voting stats, and news reports from the time.

 

You seem to be conflating whether parties supported the actual referendum with whether they supported the vote for 16 year olds

 

After the success of the introduction of votes for 16 year olds for the referendumn, the Scottish Parliament unanimously introduced votes at 16 for all Holyrood and local elections in Scotland in 2015 {source} I suggest you look up what Ruth Davidson said after the referendum - she was very open about how she changed her mind.

 

I suppose you could consider it to be cynical gerrymandering, or you could consider it to be politicians doing what they thought was the right thing and others retrospectively agreeing.

[Windwalker]

Tom Wills and the SNP will be in the best position to deliver and maintain what's best for my family.

Huge increase in free nursery places so me and the wife don't have to pay through the nose and work every hour God sends to pay for private childcare to make sure our kids get a good start in life.

No tuition fees so the members of my family who haven't already benefited will be able to better themselves and go to university and not be 10's of thousands of £££ in debt when they finish their degrees.

Free prescriptions so if anyone in my family gets sick they won't have to pay for medicine.

Maintaining EU membership which I believe has been and will be good for my family.

Tom Wills will also for the next 18 months at least, if elected, be in the enviable position of actually being in government and having the power to actually deliver on the things he's saying he wants to pursue for Shetland.

yes then they will take us out of the union, struggle to join the EU, hit us with the euro, and wont be able to make ends meet. Then all you think they are promising, will be out the window, along with hefty rises in taxes to pay for it all.

They can only see one goal which is independence and meantime they have forgotten to get on with governing the country, the sooner a new party us elected the better.

[Windwalker]

Luckily it doesn't come down to your opinion, it comes down to facts, and the facts aren't on your side. We've already been through all this in the Brexit thread Urabug.

 

If you didn't understand the referendum, perhaps you should have done a little research before you voted. The legislation on which the referendum was based, and subsequent rulings by the High Court, are very clear.

 

"a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament unless very clear language to the contrary is used in the referendum legislation in question... No such language is used in the 2015 Referendum Act," {source}

 

I suggest to do a little research on the subject, or remind yourself of the Brexit discussion thread,  before labelling me a '(friends with concerns about Brexit)' who is 'making up stories and stirring the **ite again' 

Unbelievable, most people who vote, believe that the decision of that vote will be the outcome, they don’t trawl through the net looking for any clauses hidden in the small print. When you are asked to vote you except that the majority will come out on top. Well that is unless it’s the SNP, who blatantly ignore the vote of the people, stick their fingers in their ears and go nah nah nah, we’re not listening.

[Capeesh]

@Windwalker post above ^^this one..

They're governing the country right now as we speak, they're delivering all the things mentioned above and more, of course they stand for an independent Scotland, it's hardly a secret.

I do disagree with you and anyone else who tries to suggest that Scotland is some kind of thirld world basketcase economy who wouldn't be welcomed by the EU.

I find it amusing when they get accused of always banging on about independence by their opponents who never seem to stop going on about it themselves. I read the last election leaflets, it was all about stopping the SNP and independence, not a policy in sight from any of them.

You say they've forgotten to get on with governing the country but I can see with my own eyes the new houses and school being built, I know my youngest child has nearly double the amount of free nursery care my eldest got. I found out when I successfully quit smoking that free prescriptions meant I could get the expensive nicotine replacements without having to pay, every week I see university graduates from Shetland in the Times with great big smiles on their faces who unlike their counterparts in England haven't had to pay £9k a year for the privilege. I used to be unable to get a dentist, now no probs, any other healthcare myself and others I know have received has been first class, the list goes on and on.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Capeesh

[Windwalker]

What I find ironic is the SNP wants independence and to leave the UK then states they will join the EU and be subject to all their rules, having to accept the euro, their laws etc. Hypocrisy at its best. If they think Brexit has been difficult, wait until the difficulties of agreeing a divorce from the UK starts.

 

You seem to put the blinkers on and forgot that Scotland, in its once in a generation vote, voted to remain as part of the UK.

 

As for what they’ve achieved, this is only what they should be doing, but you don’t mention the negatives. Nurseries closing, higher taxes, poor transport, electricity poverty, I could go on.

 

It’s easy to highlight a few things they have achieved but perhaps if they would set independence to one side for a generation as promised and put their efforts into governing the country, they could achieve even more, then they might even get my vote. At the moment I’m looking at broken promises and a load of waffle whist they desperately try to get their candidate elected, not to benefit Shetland, but to bolster their argument for independence

[Ghostrider]

Tom Wills and the SNP will be in the best position to deliver and maintain what's best for my family.

 

He'll be in the position of doing exactly what his party's hierachy tells him to do, or he'll be left out in the cold. In the typical style of the socialists/pseudo-communist they are, everything must be micro managed from the top, and the minions comply.

 

He'll also be in the un-enviable position of being the poor sucker who has to dress up and try and sell their more un-palatable and undesirable acts to us proles as something they're not and for far more than they're worth.

 

Having a representative who is in opposition maybe doesn't have much influence over what legislation gets forced through, but they sure as hell have the ability to be a thorn in the side of those making it, and expose it for what its is, if they choose to, rather than just sit there and be a 'Yes' (wo)man.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Ghostrider

[Capeesh]

What I find ironic is the SNP wants independence and to leave the UK then states they will join the EU and be subject to all their rules....

I don't think you'll find many French, German, Italians, Danes, Spaniards, Dutch, Belgians, Irish etc etc saying their countries aren't independent, to suggest they've given up their independence to become members of the EU and that there's no difference between them and the nations within the UK imho is unbelievable.

....If they think Brexit has been difficult, wait until the difficulties of agreeing a divorce from the UK starts...

Unless of course Scotland remains in the EU who the UK government are currently desperate to get favourable trading agreements with. I just have to look at the likes of Denmark and Ireland (small European independent nations without the rich resources we enjoy),flourishing and having their interests protected and nurtured as EU members. The UK in comparison, as far as I'm concerned is taking backward steps with Brexit, harking back to the long gone days of Empire, becoming more anti foreigner and insular, not what I want for my kids to grow up with, sorry you disagree.

...put their efforts into governing the country, they could achieve even more, then they might even get my vote.

I believe they've governed well, of course there are ppl like yourself who disagree, such is life in a democracy, people change their views, opinions and ideals all the time, democracy never stands still, I, for instance have voted Labour and Lib/dem in the past, thankfully we can express our views at the ballot box.

... whist they desperately try to get their candidate elected, not to benefit Shetland, but to bolster their argument for independence

or the opposite is true, their opponents are trying to use their stance on independence to undermine a genuine desire from Tom Wills to work for the benefit of Shetland.

[Davie P]

 

Luckily it doesn't come down to your opinion, it comes down to facts, and the facts aren't on your side. We've already been through all this in the Brexit thread Urabug.

 

If you didn't understand the referendum, perhaps you should have done a little research before you voted. The legislation on which the referendum was based, and subsequent rulings by the High Court, are very clear.

 

"a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament unless very clear language to the contrary is used in the referendum legislation in question... No such language is used in the 2015 Referendum Act," {source}

 

I suggest to do a little research on the subject, or remind yourself of the Brexit discussion thread,  before labelling me a '(friends with concerns about Brexit)' who is 'making up stories and stirring the **ite again' 

Unbelievable, most people who vote, believe that the decision of that vote will be the outcome, they don’t trawl through the net looking for any clauses hidden in the small print. When you are asked to vote you except that the majority will come out on top. Well that is unless it’s the SNP, who blatantly ignore the vote of the people, stick their fingers in their ears and go nah nah nah, we’re not listening.

 

 

So, you consider the freely accessible legislation, much of which has been on the statute books for decades and was discussed at length in both houses of parliament pre-referendumn, and the subsequent high profile High Court cases, to be "clauses hidden in the small print"?

 

I think this is symptomatic of one of the fundamental issues with Brexit - more column inches and airtime was given to blatant liars and politicians making undeliverable aspirational claims than was given to discussing the realities of the situation.

 

The legislative detail may not fit with the headline grabbing narratives of Boris' £35m NHS bus, UKIPs anti-imigrant propaganda or promises of new trade deals before breakfast, but if folk didn't understand the legal basis of the referendum, or consider the law of the land to be some sort of inconvenient detail, then perhaps there's a problem with how the information was presented to the public?

 

And if folk didn't understand the fundamental legal underpinnings of the referendum, then perhaps that provides even more impetus to make sure the detail is worked through in parliament?

[Windwalker]

I take your point, but most people getting a voting slip assumes they are voting for what’s on the slip and they accept the majority comes out on top. They don’t think when they have been asked to vote, that it will only be counted as advisory when it clearly doesn't say that on the slip, nor did any of the news articles mention this at the time if voting. Funny it’s just come to light now.

[Windwalker]

 

What I find ironic is the SNP wants independence and to leave the UK then states they will join the EU and be subject to all their rules....

I don't think you'll find many French, German, Italians, Danes, Spaniards, Dutch, Belgians, Irish etc etc saying their countries aren't independent, to suggest they've given up their independence to become members of the EU and that there's no difference between them and the nations within the UK imho is unbelievable.

....If they think Brexit has been difficult, wait until the difficulties of agreeing a divorce from the UK starts...

Unless of course Scotland remains in the EU who the UK government are currently desperate to get favourable trading agreements with. I just have to look at the likes of Denmark and Ireland (small European independent nations without the rich resources we enjoy),flourishing and having their interests protected and nurtured as EU members. The UK in comparison, as far as I'm concerned is taking backward steps with Brexit, harking back to the long gone days of Empire, becoming more anti foreigner and insular, not what I want for my kids to grow up with, sorry you disagree.

...put their efforts into governing the country, they could achieve even more, then they might even get my vote.

I believe they've governed well, of course there are ppl like yourself who disagree, such is life in a democracy, people change their views, opinions and ideals all the time, democracy never stands still, I, for instance have voted Labour and Lib/dem in the past, thankfully we can express our views at the ballot box.

... whist they desperately try to get their candidate elected, not to benefit Shetland, but to bolster their argument for independence

or the opposite is true, their opponents are trying to use their stance on independence to undermine a genuine desire from Tom Wills to work for the benefit of Shetland.

 

What I find ironic is the SNP wants independence and to leave the UK then states they will join the EU and be subject to all their rules....

I don't think you'll find many French, German, Italians, Danes, Spaniards, Dutch, Belgians, Irish etc etc saying their countries aren't independent, to suggest they've given up their independence to become members of the EU and that there's no difference between them and the nations within the UK imho is unbelievable.

....If they think Brexit has been difficult, wait until the difficulties of agreeing a divorce from the UK starts...

Unless of course Scotland remains in the EU who the UK government are currently desperate to get favourable trading agreements with. I just have to look at the likes of Denmark and Ireland (small European independent nations without the rich resources we enjoy),flourishing and having their interests protected and nurtured as EU members. The UK in comparison, as far as I'm concerned is taking backward steps with Brexit, harking back to the long gone days of Empire, becoming more anti foreigner and insular, not what I want for my kids to grow up with, sorry you disagree.

...put their efforts into governing the country, they could achieve even more, then they might even get my vote.

I believe they've governed well, of course there are ppl like yourself who disagree, such is life in a democracy, people change their views, opinions and ideals all the time, democracy never stands still, I, for instance have voted Labour and Lib/dem in the past, thankfully we can express our views at the ballot box.

... whist they desperately try to get their candidate elected, not to benefit Shetland, but to bolster their argument for independence

or the opposite is true, their opponents are trying to use their stance on independence to undermine a genuine desire from Tom Wills to work for the benefit of Shetland.

It seems a case of one rule suits your argument for re-joining the EU but the opposite when staying in the UK. I hear dee !