Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[Para Handy]

Does the electricity get sent south and then back here if needed? If so I can’t see any benefits for the Shetland islanders they will have to pay for it going out and then back. The price won’t be any cheaper on the meter in your house. The people in scotland don’t whant there own hill spoiled by wind mills but are quite happy to take the electricity just the same . not in my backyard comes to mind here.

How about all in Shetland get free electricity first and any extra is then sent south

[Frogger]

The energy from the windfarm will supply Shetland first then the surplus (nearly all of it) will go 'South' Scottish and Southern are as we speak drawing up the plans for the new high voltage lines through Tingwall and Stromfirth to supply Lerwick, Scalloway and the South end. Some lines which are fairly close to houses will be upgraded from 33,000 volts to ~130,000volts.

 

These extra bits of information are what we want to know know and we are being completely kept in the dark. If Scottish and Southern are drawing up plans for the converter supply to the local grid then surely all the plans for the other power lines connecting the turbine fields to the substations and finally the converter must already be drawn up. Why cant we see these? Is it because it is so bad that there will be an outcry or if they released the plans would it put our minds at ease?

 

That is one of the things that has me worried about the project is the seeming need for keeping the details under wraps. It just makes me worry about what they else are hiding.

[Nigel Bridgman-Elliot]

Don't you just build a bit of spare capacity for when its cloudly

 

Which you cannot really do for wind, unless you build a large flow battery..

 

http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/australian-island-using-flow-batteries-to-store-wind-power.html

 

 

I thought it was shouted from the rooftops:

 

http://www.theenvironmentsite.org/forum/solar-energy-forum/10412-nanosolars-breakthrough-solar-now-cheaper-than-coal.html

 

Though until we can buy the panels mass produced on Ebay, I'm as skeptical as the next person..

[ArabiaTerra]

Don't you just build a bit of spare capacity for when its cloudly

 

Which you cannot really do for wind, unless you build a large flow battery..

 

http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/australian-island-using-flow-batteries-to-store-wind-power.html

 

 

I thought it was shouted from the rooftops:

 

http://www.theenvironmentsite.org/forum/solar-energy-forum/10412-nanosolars-breakthrough-solar-now-cheaper-than-coal.html

 

Though until we can buy the panels mass produced on Ebay, I'm as skeptical as the next person..

Those solar panels sound pretty cool. I hadn't realised they were actually possible yet.

 

As far as the flow battery idea goes, it's just part of what we have to do. Our grid is designed to take power from a few dozen huge base-load stations and distribute the power to the country. It needs to be rebuilt to take power from millions of small scale generators and spread it around and also store it to cover us when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

[Nigel Bridgman-Elliot]

A little more news/data about the German plant they have built to produce them in Europe and a solar powerstation if you will:

 

http://guntherportfolio.blogspot.com/2008/09/nanosolar-photovoltaic-hindsight.html

 

I wonder how the cost of solar compares with wind power now..

[Para Handy]

9 December, 2008

 

SHETLAND Charitable Trust yesterday (Monday) deferred a decision to start investing in the proposed Viking Energy wind farm because its members feared a potential conflict of interest.

 

Some trustees also expressed unease with the 550 megawatt project during a three hour meeting, which also saw two presentations on the proposal.

 

Sceptics said afterwards that yesterday's decision exposed the first cracks in support for Viking Energy, and was further evidence of the need to separate the trust from the local authority.

 

Trustees were asked to approve £2.25 million towards the project, £1.5 million of which was to be paid back to Shetland Islands Council for what had already been spent on the development.

 

However many of the 22 councillors, serving as trustees, felt such a move could be considered a conflict of interest.

 

As councillors they were keen to see the money returned to the SIC, but as trustees they were unsure of the benefits of the investment.

 

A majority yesterday said they wanted to see written evidence that the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR) had cleared the deal, and were not prepared to rely on verbal assurances from trust chairman Bill Manson and acting manager Jeff Goddard.

 

Independent trustee John Scott accused Mr Manson of putting trustees in an impossible position and even warned that the police could become involved should it turn out that trustees were breaking the law.

 

Mr Manson said they were putting the interests of the trust before those of the council, saying Viking Energy could potentially reap huge benefits.

 

Council convener Sandy Cluness then reminded the meeting that the trust was designed "to provide services and capital projects we would not be able to finance through government finance" and urged his colleagues to get on with it.

 

But a motion brought forward by Jonathan Wills that trustees would only discuss and decide upon the matter once the written minutes of a meeting between Mr Manson, Mr Goddard and OSCR were made available by the regulator, won the day by eight votes to seven.

 

After the meeting Dr Wills said: "We should have had that document before us today, because I take the conflict of interest issue very seriously.

 

"I think it probably can be resolved now, but I am not putting my decision at risk without seeing the written evidence.

 

"I think it was wise to postpone the discussion

and all the arguments, about whether it is a good investment and how big it should be, we can have at the meeting."

 

During the discussion some of the trustees, who as councillors sit on the authority’s planning board, including its chairman Frank Robertson, expressed their difficulty with potential conflicts of interest.

 

Yesterday's meeting was observed by five members of Sustainable Shetland, a 422 member group that opposes the construction of any large wind farm in Shetland, proposing instead a series of smaller "fit to scale" renewable energy projects in the isles.

 

Its vice chairman Kevin Learmonth said after the meeting that he was pleased trustees had rejected an attempt "to railroad them into a decision".

 

He added: "I think it is looking good in that trustees are taking an active interest in how the charitable trust is dealing with Viking Energy and starting to ask some very sensible questions.

 

"I think the determination of some trustees to railroad the project is starting to backfire on them, as other trustees who are sympathetic to the project are starting to realise the potential enormity of the situation should they make the wrong decision."

 

During the meeting councillor/trustee Allison Duncan called for a referendum on whether islanders wanted the project or not, and questioned whether Shetland could afford a wind farm in addition to a new £49 million Anderson High School plus a number of care centres for the elderly.

 

Meanwhile Viking project officer David Thomson reported that most of the peat land earmarked for the development was in a poor state and was already emitting large amounts of carbon dioxide due to overgrazing and subsequent erosion.

 

He said the project, if carefully executed, could enhance the quality of the peat land. "We can do a lot of good to the site,†he said.

 

Mr Scott said he hoped the developers had learned from the construction of the Sullom Voe oil terminal 30 years ago, when whole hillsides slipped in a fluid mass into Orca Voe.

 

Mr Thomson gave a "categorical" assurance that there were no plans to increase the proposed windfarm's capacity beyond the 550MW mark.

 

However, it could well be that the present number of 154 turbines, each with a capacity of 3.6MW, could be reduced should larger 5MW turbines, already used commercially, become the preferred option.

 

The final presentation of the day was by Stephen Kerr, of engineering consultants Avayl, who gave a number of financial projections which indicated that Shetland Charitable Trust could benefit from an income of £18 million over a 20 year period.

 

He said that 255 jobs would be created in Shetland during the four to five year long construction period with a further 46 jobs during the 25 year long operation period.

 

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[Nigel Bridgman-Elliot]

If I might just add this I saw in the news recently:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7763900.stm

 

> Turbine off after ice falls

>

> A giant wind turbine near Peterborough has been switched off

> after its frozen blades threw shards of ice crashing into

> nearby homes.

 

Ice wasn't an issue I had thought or heard of before, I wonder what they do from a design point of view to solve that issue ? (Apart from perhaps building them further away from peoples homes..)

[ArabiaTerra]

Putting a turbine that close to housing is insane. It's no wonder the people are pissed off. I'm not sure what the minimum distance from the nearest house to any of the proposed VE turbines will be, but I would doubt that there will be any houses within half a mile.

[bradgate5]

Couldn't Shetland be self sufficient from wind energy and avoid the cost of a cable to the mainland?

[MuckleJoannie]

^^^^^^^^

From the previous page of this thread

 

 

The Burradale windfarm produces 0 to 18% of Shetland electricity, depending on wind strength.

 

 

http://www.burradale.co.uk/Projects.html

 

I believe Burradale produces as much electricity as the local grid can take. If we depended on wind energy totally there would be an awful lot of times when we would be sitting in darkness if there was the wrong kind of wind, so the Gremista power station will be with us for a while.

[Nigel Bridgman-Elliot]

Maybe a solar power station instead

 

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/12/1-gigawatt-solar-power-plant-planned-jordan.php?daylife=1

 

And if you build a factory too, you've something to export..

 

 

I do wonder though, if you used a flow battery:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

 

http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/australian-island-using-flow-batteries-to-store-wind-power.html

 

http://cleantechnica.com/2008/11/18/new-cost-effective-battery-tested-to-store-wind-power/

 

http://www.leonardo-energy.org/drupal/node/959

 

How big it would need to be to cope with periods of the wrong type of wind.

 

 

I'm under the impression the main reason for the wind farm is to generate an income, one only avaliable if the power is exported.

 

 

Though being connected to a grid does I also imagine improve security of supply as you have a backup if you need it.

[Styumpie]

I do wonder though, if you used a flow battery:

 

I think flow batteries are the key to off grid smaller scale wind developments, I am in the process of getting hold of NiFe cells for my own system, they are very old tech, 100 year+ but they have some great properties, i.e they last for a life time, only needing a few electrolyte changes in their life. There are only a handful of places you can get them from now, the Chinese are the only ones I can find who make a modern version of NiFe, but the off griders in America are making these cells a come back.

 

For off grid power i'm pretty sure this could be the way forward, and I think a community scheme could also work using this method, using either a centralised battery bank, or a separate bank for each house. NiFe is about the only battery chemistry that lasts, so they are extremely cost effective in the long term, essentially fit and forget. This type of system could be rolled out all over the place, with no need for an inter connector + giant wind turbines all over the isles.

 

http://www.changhongbattery.com/english/cp/view.asp?id=129

 

http://www.changhongbattery.com/english/cp/upload/news_200452619715.jpg

[Nigel Bridgman-Elliot]

Also, encouraging news on the radar issue:

 

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/display.var.2069406.0.i_want_to_bring_james_bond_technology_to_cathkin_braes.php

 

> The firm had used "stealth technology" to devise turbine blades

> which do not register on radar and were looking for a place to trial it.

 

I wonder if its anything like the Carbon Fiber Blades designed by AEROMAX ?

 

And:

 

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/holographic-infill-radar-offers-potential,589581.shtml

 

> Holographic Radar is a non-scanning, continuously tracking 3D

> radar that can discriminate between turbines and aircraft based

> on easily observable differences in their behaviour

 

 

Has it already been mentioned the electric usage locally, compared with whats planned to be generated ? (I'm just wondering, if it was all sold locally, then they could still make a profit, and maybe even reduce the price a little to encourage people to move here.. ;- ) )

[Carlos]

For off grid power i'm pretty sure this could be the way forward, and I think a community scheme could also work using this method, using either a centralised battery bank, or a separate bank for each house.

Do you have some numbers for how that kind of system works out?

 

Like Shetland-wide peak electricity demand is X, average demand is Y, giving a need for a battery bank of Z, which needs an installed turbine capacity of T, given the frequency of wind being available and the transmission / efficiency losses.

I'm interested how that all works out, what kind of turbine installation you would actually need for it to be the sole energy source for Shetland, no back up needed.

[ArabiaTerra]

For off grid power i'm pretty sure this could be the way forward, and I think a community scheme could also work using this method, using either a centralised battery bank, or a separate bank for each house.

Do you have some numbers for how that kind of system works out?

 

Like Shetland-wide peak electricity demand is X, average demand is Y, giving a need for a battery bank of Z, which needs an installed turbine capacity of T, given the frequency of wind being available and the transmission / efficiency losses.

I'm interested how that all works out, what kind of turbine installation you would actually need for it to be the sole energy source for Shetland, no back up needed.

The Burradale windfarm produces 0 to 18% of Shetland electricity, depending on wind strength.

Burradale provides 0-18% of Shetlands power depending on the wind, so call it 10% as a rough average. So you would need 10 Burradales or 50 Burradale sized turbines plus say 10% for backup/maintenance, that's 55 total.

 

The battery capacity would totally depend on the length of time you want to run on back-up only which will depend on the length of time you expect any period of low/no wind to last. You would have to look at past weather records to decide this and you would still need backup generating capacity "just in case".

 

Like I've said before, we're going to get wind turbines, like it or not. The question is whether or not you want a system which suits our needs only but has to be paid for and maintained solely by us, or the VE proposal which will generate a significant income which will easily cover maintenance costs and pay for itself with money left over for the council's coffers.

 

Oh yes, the VE proposal will also get us the interconnector with spare capacity which will allow other renewable sources to be added later.

 

I've repeatedly made it clear which I prefer.

 

P.S. These figures are totally off the top of my head but I think they are in the ballpark but as I'm not an electrical engineer, please feel free to correct me if I'm talking nonsense.