Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[Carlos]

Yes, the reality is a bit more complicated if you want to be able to run on just turbines & batteries. On the one side of the batteries you have the variable input from the turbines, and on the other you have the variable output from the consumers. Giving factors of safety all round nump up the base levels a fair bit.

 

With those factors varying semi-independently, you'd certainly need more than 10x the turbine capacity of Burradale, as that "10% of Shetland's demand" figure is a straight average over the year, and doesn't have all the losses a battery storage system would introduce.

It'd be interesting to see how much more it comes out at..... I might guess you'd need about 2x more turbine capacity than power station capacity, but there must be somebody with more idea than me - wouldn't be hard

 

Of course then if you start selling your Shetland brand electricity cheaper than the power companies then you get more people switching to electric heating, and mess up your own figures, but still........

[crofter]

the VE proposal which will generate a significant income which will easily cover maintenance costs and pay for itself with money left over for the council's coffers.

 

 

might

[ArabiaTerra]

the VE proposal which will generate a significant income which will easily cover maintenance costs and pay for itself with money left over for the council's coffers.

 

 

might

Oh come on, as electricity prices stand, it will make a profit or they wouldn't even be considering it. Do you really expect prices to go down?

[crofter]

Oh come on, as electricity prices stand, it will make a profit or they wouldn't even be considering it. Do you really expect prices to go down?

 

No, but just a few months ago I didn't expect to see oil below $50 again either... It is financially risky in my mind.

[ArabiaTerra]

Oh come on, as electricity prices stand, it will make a profit or they wouldn't even be considering it. Do you really expect prices to go down?

 

No, but just a few months ago I didn't expect to see oil below $50 again either... It is financially risky in my mind.

Risky? As opposed to what?

 

As Carlos and I pointed out a few posts ago, "Sustainable" Shetland's idea of community based renewables will require between 50 and 100 Burradale sized turbines or multiple hundreds of smaller turbines plus a colossal amount of batteries and will still require Gremista for back-up. How much do you think that will cost, without generating any extra money for the Shetland economy? How risky will that be?

[crofter]

I would rather see a few thousand micro turbines, perhaps funded by loans to individual householders from the Charitable trust. Some of the loans might not be paid back, but it would be possible to re-possess those turbines and sell them to somebody else. The people who did pay back their loans would also pay interest and after a period (say 10 years) when the turbine was paid for the money which no longer needs to be spent on loan repayments/the hydro bill would find its way into the local economy. Much less risky, and free electricity for anybody who wants to put up a windmill. Sure the VE project might earn more for the Trust, but Shetlanders will still have extortionate hydro bills.

[ArabiaTerra]

But what about Lerwick. There's no room for a few thousand micro-turbines there and if these things cost, say, £5000/household times 5000 houses (including Lerwick), that's £25,000,000 plus the cost of the battery back-up, say another £5000/household = £50,000,000. Half of that won't be paid back as not all households can afford the repayments on a ten grand loan and we'd still have to pay for the upkeep/fuel bills of Gremista on top of that.

 

Then there's all the schools/leisure centres/care homes/community halls etc...

 

I'm not saying it's not do-able but the difference in cost between this option and the VE proposal won't be as much as you think and the potential benefits, financially, will be IMHO negligible as compared to the almost guaranteed profit from the VE proposal.

 

Plus, the interconnector will allow the development of Shetlands wave and tidal resources as well and the profits from the VE proposal will provide seed money to ensure that Shetland owns an interest in any such development.

 

I realise we will probably never agree on this but that's my tuppence worth anyway. I'm off to crack another tin now, so I'll see you on the flipside.

[crofter]

 

Plus, the interconnector will allow the development of Shetlands wave and tidal resources

 

Yes, I agree that is one potential benefit from VE.

[Carlos]

Well, free if you go with the battery system as well as the 1000s of micro turbines. But those are just another side of the same figures I'm interested in.

 

Given the power usage patterns of a normal house, what size of micro turbine would you need to ensure what size of battery storage was always charged?

The efficiencies of a decentralised scheme, with many more smaller parts is going to be lower than a big scheme for various reasons, so if I guess some more figures, you'd need maybe 100x or 200x the installed turbine capacity of Burradale now to meet the full power demands with single house turbines?

 

I'm not against the principle, but it seems if you go for wind on a big scale you have similar issues, whether the "big scale" is 150 really big turbines, or 5000 smaller ones.

[ArabiaTerra]

I'm not against the principle, but it seems if you go for wind on a big scale you have similar issues, whether the "big scale" is 150 really big turbines, or 5000 smaller ones.

Exactly the point I've been trying to get across for months!

[Nigel Bridgman-Elliot]

Being that the UK is expecting brownouts again this winter, and our electric generating capacity is falling and reckon to continue to fall for some years to come, I reckon its a fair bet that for at least the next maybe 5 years, that electric prices will go up.

 

Beyond that, its hard to tell with the likes of solar/fusion/something else/ not too far away.

 

But then it comes down to your operating costs, even if the price falls, as long as your costs are low and you can still make a profit, then all is good.

 

One might ask, how low can the price go per unit before its a problem ?

 

(Aren't they getting some subsidy for producing green electric that means they are guaranteed an income for X years no matter what the price...)

[ArabiaTerra]

But then it comes down to your operating costs, even if the price falls, as long as your costs are low and you can still make a profit, then all is good.

This is the great benefit of the VE proposal. The Burradale farm has proven that the wind resource here is twice as good as most other places. This means the VE farm will produce twice as much power as a same sized farm elsewhere in the UK, which means double the profits. Like I've said, it's a no-brainer.

[sheepshagger]

Sure ive posted this before but why the hell use gremista at all we could use the power station at sullom to give back up to any micro generation. there is enough gas out there to keep us warm for 50+ years and handily piped right to us.

[JustMe]

Sure ive posted this before but why the hell use gremista at all we could use the power station at sullom to give back up to any micro generation. there is enough gas out there to keep us warm for 50+ years and handily piped right to us.

 

A mixture of the words "eggs in one basket" and "big bang theory" come to mind. There is always a potential for oil terminals to explode as indeed there is a potential for power stations to catch fire and we have to remember that there will be times when all the aerogenerators on Shetland are producing not one single spark between the lot of them.

[Caeser]

Any one hear radio Shetland last night?

 

I heard Peerie Wishart saying that one of the main benefits of the development was that any new form of renewable energy scheme could export its power through the proposed cable.

 

As far as I am aware this is incorrect. The cable is for VE use only.

 

Tis a pity the powers that be use their spin to tell lies in a bid to get the peasants to believe in the plan.

 

Wonder if David thompson could clarify?