Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[Skunnered]

^^As an overall project it may well be profitable, but at the moment we simply don't know how much of the profit will end up as a benefit to the Shetland community. Oh yes, we've had some estimates from VE, but that's all that they are at this stage, just estimates. So let's wait and see if they come up with any firm and justified figures before the final decision to go ahead.

[ArabiaTerra]

Assuming? AT, you would be the first to jump on someone else "assuming" anything.

 

Liverpool bay actually boasts average wind speeds of 30mph, according to this source:

http://www.powermag.com/renewables/wind/Burbo-Bank-Offshore-Wind-Farm-Liverpool-Bay-UK_227_p2.html

 

Which is pretty good, in the greater scheme of things, don't you think? Is Shetland's average not around Force 5 (18-24mph)?

Cheers for that, Njugle. I spent some time yesterday trying to find that kind of data but was unsuccessful, so I just went with the average power factor often quoted for windfarms South

 

I think my general point still stands though, the cost of offshore windfarms is approximately double that of onshore wind, yet there is a race to develop as much offshore wind as possible. This wouldn't be happening if it wasn't considered profitable.

 

^^As an overall project it may well be profitable, but at the moment we simply don't know how much of the profit will end up as a benefit to the Shetland community. Oh yes, we've had some estimates from VE, but that's all that they are at this stage, just estimates. So let's wait and see if they come up with any firm and justified figures before the final decision to go ahead.

Don't you think that owning 45% of the company would give us 45% of the profit?

 

Do you have any reason to believe this would not be the case?

 

And when has any profit forecast for any enterprise in history been more than an estimate? Until the thing is actually built we won't know for sure. I think you are putting an unreasonable burden of proof on the VE venture. Why?

[ArabiaTerra]

I think you have missed my point as well. I'm not saying that all electrical companies charge the same, EDF may well be significantly cheaper than SSE.

 

No AT you have missed the point whether deliberately or through ignorance only you know.

 

compare like for like tariff with the same company here and south and it is much much more expensive here.

 

Is it a case of, if you write enough sharn some of it may be believed AT, cause I can see no other explanation for your witterings.

Right, I've just compared the tariffs for Aberdeen and Shetland with the hydro and guess what,... they are exactly the same.

 

Told you.

 

You can compare here:

 

http://www.hydro.co.uk/ourprices/

 

Just open the page in two tabs, put an Aberdeen postcode into one, and a Shetland post code into the other and select electricity only.

 

On the results page, click the show our tariff table link, then compare the two.

 

If you don't have a valid Aberdeen postcode, try AB243UP.

[crofter]

Don't you think that owning 45% of the company would give us 45% of the profit?

 

Yes. But I would like to see how the projected profit has been calculated.

 

Do you have any reason to believe this would not be the case?

 

If the venture is not a success, we might own 45% of a very big loss...

[Colliedogs]

I'm not sure if everyone is aware, but you can go to another supplier for your electricity; we changed to British Gas last year and we made a saving this year; it's worth shopping around on the internet for the best deal every 12 months or so.

[JGHR]

^^As an overall project it may well be profitable, but at the moment we simply don't know how much of the profit will end up as a benefit to the Shetland community. Oh yes, we've had some estimates from VE, but that's all that they are at this stage, just estimates. So let's wait and see if they come up with any firm and justified figures before the final decision to go ahead.

 

I suspect that SSE are not quite as confident about this projects commercial viability as the VE spin doctors would have us believe. SSE are a large corporate enterprise, their first and foremost priority, in common with all corporations, is generating returns for their shareholders, not for the people of Shetland. IF SSE thought this project was a sure fire money sinner why would they bother taking the SIC and the Burradale outfit into partnership? They wouldn’t, unless they had another good reason for doing so. SSE have the money and the expertise to execute this project without VE so why do they need them as partners? Perhaps because they see that it lessens their commercial exposure to a level they are comfortable with, or maybe because they cannot just front up in Shetland and start building windmills whenever they want, despite what VE spin tells you.

[Colliedogs]

This is an informative website which some of you might find interesting. http://www.wind-watch.org/news/category/locations/europe/uk/scotland/page/1/

[unlinkedstudent]

Right, I've just compared the tariffs for Aberdeen and Shetland with the hydro and guess what,... they are exactly the same.

 

Told you...

 

Okay, I've nearly recovered from banging my head on a brick wall ...

 

AT, of course Aberdeen is going to be the same price as here with the same electricity company; my point is that (and I'm not scrolling back) I believe you said something along the lines of "south". Now by "south" I had (incorrectly) assumed you were comparing with an electricity company beyond Scotland.

 

All things being "unequal", I'm not aware of another lekky supplier that does a "Total heat, total control" package hence, therefore, one cannot compare on that particular package.

 

In an attempt to be fair, I've just visited uswitch.com. I couldn't choose the option of "Total heat, total control" as it was not listed under Scottish Hydro's packages but did enter the amount I pay per month by direct debit and selected the standard tariff. I then chose standard for the quotation from other companies.

 

Blimey, EDF would offer a saving of over £300 per annum, as did many of the other utility companies. Me thinks I will have to look at the small print and see how long I'm tied up with Scottish Hydro for!

 

Now isn't Scottish Hydro part of SSE or am I wrong? Are their existing customers subsiding building wind farms?

 

For once AT, come clean and admit that "All things being equal", those customers of SSE/Scottish Hydro do pay more than those "down sarf" - or are you insinuating that all electricity generated "down sarf" is from nuclear or wind?

[Skunnered]

Don't you think that owning 45% of the company would give us 45% of the profit?

 

Do you have any reason to believe this would not be the case?

 

And when has any profit forecast for any enterprise in history been more than an estimate? Until the thing is actually built we won't know for sure. I think you are putting an unreasonable burden of proof on the VE venture. Why?

I have explained, in detail, my concerns regarding the financial and contractual aspects of this project, several times in this thread. I assume that either you have not bothered to read my comments, or you choose to ignore them. Perhaps you want to concentrate on the technical and environmental aspect of the project, but if the Shetland Community fails to get the returns that VE are forecasting, it is unlikely that this will be because of technical failure, it will most likely be because of the financial, investment, and contractual setup.

 

I refer in particular to the arrangement between VE and SSE for the supply and purchase of the power, and the cost of the funds required from banks and/or investors.

 

And finally, no I don't think I'm putting an unreasonable burden of proof on VE, because when they go to the market to find funding for the project, they will have to produce huge detail with justification and verification, otherwise they won't get the funding they need.

[ArabiaTerra]

Sorry, unlinkedstudent, I should have been clearer in what I was comparing. I'm not disputing the fact that different companies have different tariffs and packages. What I was disputing was the allegation that we pay more for electricity up here (Shetland) than on the mainland due to the fact that the electricity generated at Gremista and Sullom is much more expensive due to the fuels burnt, principally diesel burned at Gremista.

 

The point I was trying to make is that "South" ie: Mainland UK, has been subsidising Shetland since the fifties when the national grid was first set up. There has never been a separate Shetland tariff which truly represented the actual cost of the electricity generated here.

 

I hope that makes things clearer.

[unlinkedstudent]

^^ Thank you AT.

[paulb]

but the power from sullom is spare capacity. so it must be cheaper than the mainlands generation.

[skaterboy]

ArabiaTerra wrote:

 

Right, I've just compared the tariffs for Aberdeen and Shetland with the hydro and guess what,... they are exactly the same.

 

Told you...

 

What meter number did you use when you compared prices AT

[ArabiaTerra]

but the power from sullom is spare capacity. so it must be cheaper than the mainlands generation.

I don't think so, but I could be completely wrong here. As far as I know, the hydro bought one of the Sullom turbines, so I presume that they are also buying the gas to run it and I don't think Sullom will be giving the gas away any cheaper than standard prices.

 

I'm sure BP would rather see the gas go up the flare than give it away, it's just not in their nature.

 

There is a separate gas pipeline which goes from the East Shetland Basin to St Fergus. Most of the North Sea gas goes this way to feed the mains gas system on the mainland.

 

Extra gas is actually added (I believe) to the Brent and Ninian pipelines to provide fuel for Sullom. When it gets to Sullom, the Propane and Butane are separated out for export and the rest is burnt in the power station so there is no spare capacity to speak of. If the hydro hadn't bought the turbine they own, then less gas would be added to the oil and the turbine would have been sold off and removed (one turbine actually was removed).

 

What meter number did you use when you compared prices AT

Meter number?

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. There was a whole table full of different tariffs and charges. They were all exactly the same.

[Colliedogs]

Maybe I can help with the SVT Power Station issue. Obviously, I cannot divulge anything commenrial so I'll stick to what is in the public domain! The arrangement at SVT Power Station goes like this; there are 4 x 25MW Gas Turbines of which usually only 2 are synchronised at any one time to produce enough power for the entire SVT and also to allow an export of around 12MW to the Shetland Grid. The Power Station is operated and maintained by a company that is independent from BP on an Ops and Maintenance contract. BP supply the Power Station with either high quality West of Shetland gas, East of Shetland gas and diesel to ensure continuity of supply. SVT cannot import power from the Shetland grid, it can only be exported to the Shetland grid hence the large amount of redundancy built into the number of installed generators i.e. two in service, one on standby and one down for maintence. BP provide the gas to the power station and get paid a contract price from SSE; the independent company that run the Power Station make nothing from the agreement between BP/SSE. The Power Station, however, is directly responsible to SEPA for the emission reporting.