Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[Ghostrider]

Maybe I'm missing something, but as I understand it the converter station which feeds the cable is going to be at Kergord, which means that somewhere like Yell or wherever is going to have to lay their own cable from wherever they are to the converter.

I think if the local grid is connected to the convertor station, then the hypothetical Yell windfarm would only need to connect to the local grid.

 

Well seeing as its yet one more thing we've been told very little about, that is very possible, and would go a long way towards explaining why it is such a brute of a facility. Not only then does it have to simply convert and export and import, it becomes a massive central switch house continously juggling the variable production of windmills and the varying demands of the local grid.

 

Gonna be "fun" the day that boyo blows his main fuse.

[Clooty Cap]

Well seeing as its yet one more thing we've been told very little about, that is very possible, and would go a long way towards explaining why it is such a brute of a facility. Not only then does it have to simply convert and export and import, it becomes a massive central switch house continously juggling the variable production of windmills and the varying demands of the local grid.

 

Gonna be "fun" the day that boyo blows his main fuse.

 

I'm guessing the reason its such a brute of a facility is that it will eventually handle a load that matches the proposed sub sea cables maximum capacity, and as its converting AC voltage to DC voltage and stepping the voltage up to its transmission voltage (400kv i think) then a fair whack of the overall area will be made up of transformers and associated heat sinks. I wouldn't think it will be doing any juggling or switching though.

[ArabiaTerra]

If you could spell out these fundamental problems, I'll see if I can help.

 

I thought you'd read my letter!

 

At the root of it: Renewable energy is by its very definition, not scarce. Therefore, cannot adhere to the "supply and demand" principles that underpin traditional fuel economics.

 

I am in no position to suggest solutions to this problem, other than to describe renewables as 'intermittent' as opposed to 'scarce', and to suggest that the renewable industry's current dependency on government subsidy is a direct result of this problem.

Oops, yeah, I did read your letter. I just didn't make the connection between letter and poster. Sorry about that.

 

Now, leaving aside the climate change issue for the moment, I think I get what you are talking about here.

 

Renewable energy requires all the cash up front as capital cost which makes it initially more expensive than conventional generating capacity, but it has no other costs (other than maintenance). Also, due to it's intermittency, you require additional capacity over and above your power requirements, and methods of storage, which add even more to the up front cost. In addition renewable energy, by it's very nature, is dispersed, so any system to harvest it will by definition have to cover a large area.

 

Traditional power generating plant costs less to build as you can really exploit the economies of scale (you can build it big) and you also only need to build capacity to match demand as it is more controllable because you can switch it on and off as needed. The down side is that it incurs a variable (but rarely falling) and significant additional cost throughout it's lifetime in the form of fuel.

 

Given these constraints, what you say about renewables makes sense. They should be introduced gradually to spread out that high capital cost and to minimise the economic disruption incurred.

 

However...

 

You cannot leave aside the Climate Change issue. If we continue as we are then we are looking at around six degrees of temperature rise by 2100 and more to come in the following centuries. That is equal to, or exceeds, the change at the end of the last ice age and will cause a similar amount of change in the environment. And this change will happen within 250 years of the beginning of the industrial age. The change at the end of the last ice age took 5000 years. The last time the environment changed this much this quickly on Earth was when the Chicxulub asteroid took out 75% of all species including the dinosaurs.

 

Your idea for the gradual introduction of renewables would, in normal times, be sound. But these are not normal times. We are facing a crisis, staring into the abyss, and we are running out of time.

 

Hence, the crash program of building renewables and the accompanying subsidies.

 

The reason I asked you to google fossil fuel subsidies is because whenever the renewable subsidy subject is brought up, it is always presented as giving an unfair advantage to technologies which would be uneconomic otherwise. This is simply not true. Renewable subsidies are required simply to level the playing field against subsidised fossil fuels.

 

As for the story in the Telegraph you linked to, the Torygraph is not a credible source of information on the Climate Change debate. It hosts both Christopher Booker and James Delingpole, the Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber of British environmental journalism. And anyway, the story, once you discard the spin, actually says the Danes are switching the focus of their wind energy program from onshore to offshore. Hardly a U-turn.

 

 

P.S, I got the impression from your letter, that you may not be entirely in agreement with the current scientific consensus in the Climate Change debate. I'm perfectly happy to discuss this, but for the mods sake, could you go to the Global warming thread if you want to take this further.

[ArabiaTerra]

I am going to have to burst your bubble Arabia Terra, the viking energy wind farm as proposed is not going to save the planet , it's not going to save one single lump of coal or drop of oil.

 

It will have a massive impact on our local environment and the environment of many others , from moving millions of cubes of our hillsides around and digging vast seabed trenches from here to the mainland. Scouring other peoples landscapes for rare earth , copper and other hard to get minerals and metals .

I said I'd get around to responding to this, Gorgo, sorry it took so long.

 

I'll deal with the windfarm bit here, and the rest on the Global Warming thread.

 

VE will make Shetland carbon neutral, so it'll save whatever is currently burnt at Gremista and Sullom. It will also be able to power a large part of Northern Scotland. Think of a satellite view of Northern Scotland at night. Then imagine all the lights on Shetland turning green, and that green spreading through Orkney and into Northern Scotland. Now, this tide of green will ebb and flow according to the wind, so it will require back-up, but only when the wind is low.

 

Couple this together with all the other ebbing and flowing tides of green from all the other windfarms in Scotland and you'll see that we're getting there.

 

To say that it will make no difference is just rubbish.

[Guest SJP17]

You wont give up , even against then daming evidence that global co 2 output levels will not decrease within the next 20 years.

You can easily be described as an extremist.

[ArabiaTerra]

You wont give up , even against then daming evidence that global co 2 output levels will not decrease within the next 20 years.

You can easily be described as an extremist.

No, I won't give up.

 

Our Children and Grandchildren face an extreme future. We have it in our power to change that. If advocating that change makes me an extremist, then so be it.

 

At least I have the courage to try.

[unlinkedstudent]

You wont give up , even against then daming evidence that global co 2 output levels will not decrease within the next 20 years.

You can easily be described as an extremist.

No, I won't give up.

 

Our Children and Grandchildren face an extreme future. We have it in our power to change that. If advocating that change makes me an extremist, then so be it.

 

At least I have the courage to try.

 

One could interpret that as putting the human race before the planet. You are prepared to sacrifice precisely what green energy is meant to protect in exchange for powering your offspring's electrical consumption?

[Frances144]

Has anyone got a time scale for when we will know the decision of whether this goes ahead or not?

[KTL]

There's no official timescale, but with Scottish elections in May, it might not happen within the life of this parliament. Kicking it into the long grass via a Public Local Inquiry would be a safe get-out for the current or next government.

The longer a decision takes, the more money Viking Energy consumes just in fixed costs never mind consultants.

Regardless of any decision by the Energy Minister - our Charitable Trust trustees have it within their power to suspend all activities of Viking Energy Limited. The money saved could go towards proper draft proofing and insulation for Shetland households in fuel poverty.

[paulb]

its better to have a decision now. dragging on would only cost us more. why do you think it would be good to payout extra millions in lawyers fees. the only good that would do is make the lawyer richer.

[unlinkedstudent]

its better to have a decision now. dragging on would only cost us more. why do you think it would be good to payout extra millions in lawyers fees. the only good that would do is make the lawyer richer.

 

Because we have local elections too and we can get rid of the ones that voted for the blooming thing and at the same time get rid of the ones also wearing their Trustee hats!

[GT]

Because we have local elections too and we can get rid of the ones that voted for the blooming thing and at the same time get rid of the ones also wearing their Trustee hats!

 

Sadly no - unfortunately the local elections aren't until 2012 so we will just have to endure another year of mismanagement, incompetence and waste.

[unlinkedstudent]

^^ I appreciate they are in 2012 but it was in response to Paul asking why drag it out. Of course it would be better if they came to their senses and pulled the plug now though.

[ArabiaTerra]

You wont give up , even against then daming evidence that global co 2 output levels will not decrease within the next 20 years.

You can easily be described as an extremist.

No, I won't give up.

 

Our Children and Grandchildren face an extreme future. We have it in our power to change that. If advocating that change makes me an extremist, then so be it.

 

At least I have the courage to try.

 

One could interpret that as putting the human race before the planet. You are prepared to sacrifice precisely what green energy is meant to protect in exchange for powering your offspring's electrical consumption?

That would be a ridiculous interpretation. How can you put the human race before the planet? We live here, and we require a functional biosphere in order to do so.

 

Climate Change, peak oil, water scarcity, over population, we need to radically re-order our society in order to preserve the environment and human civilisation. If we fail to preserve one of these things, the other goes down too. They are inextricably linked and must both be protected.

 

If we lose one we lose both. That's the bottom line.

[paulb]

^^ I appreciate they are in 2012 but it was in response to Paul asking why drag it out. Of course it would be better if they came to their senses and pulled the plug now though.

alas unlink little do you know shetland. those that are going to stand will probably get in with little difficulty.

they do need a good kicking but not over the turbines. remember all the other little errors first. clark/ and appoitment, the bridge, jardines chris hodge.the ferry, loans to family members. loss of memoryyou name it they have done it.

why would you want it to drag on worried that the antis case is not strong enough. what happens if VE gets the boot and a large private company does the same.

with oil gone up $20 in a day which when the oil companies pass on the price rise is 10p extra per ltr. add on the other 5p rise in april and this is why we need diffrent power sorces.

imagine if the power company charged use the real cost of our power.