Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[unlinkedstudent]

Given all the other nonsense Shetland has spent it's money on, windmills are one of the better ideas. Although Ghostriders point about local authorities being off the scale of incompetence is taken.

 

What does Salmond have to do with Viking Energy? answer - absolutely nothing. Is developing renewable energy in a peak oil environment a good idea? absolutely

 

If we recall VE originated in Shetland, by Shetland and for Shetland.

 

If this project was indeed for Shetland, then one could put forward the argument that the incompetent twits at the Charitable Trust/SIC (whichever cap fits) would have ensured they were the major shareholders - they are not. We don't know the details of the actual agreement as despite the fact we, the public, are the (alleged) shareholders, they REFUSE to make the details of the agreement public. For all we know, there could be some clauses within that are extremely detrimental; indeed, didn't the Flea already discover one such clause?

 

VE has a lot to do with Salmond; if it wasn't for his pathetic pie-in-the-sky view that Scotland is going to be powered 100% by renewables and if he wasn't so in favour of such half-baked ideas, you can bet your bottom dollar (given your Americanism of spelling in your post ) that his Energy Minister would NOT have rubber-stamped it.

 

Whitelees has huge subsidies - do you really think that financial advisors in the square mile and elsewhere have not cottoned onto the fact that other countries are now realising that windfarms are not such a money spinner in the longer term and should these subsidies disappear, they would NOT make a profit?

 

VE alone will not and never will set the market price for the electricity. Their literature does not specify which projects they are using as comparables.

 

Don't quote the interconnector (not that you did in your recent post); are you seriously of the opinion that it will never get damaged and never develop any faults? What are/will the penalty clauses be in the event of such downtime? What will happen to the electricity generated by VE then?

[crofter]

Any fishing that involves nets or bait. No need to list really.

 

No need to list, or you cannot list? You have slandered every hardworking fisherman in Shetland who risk their lives in all weathers to put a healthy meal on folks plates, but you won't back up your statement with facts? Poor show really.

[crofter]

I would think the old mono troot net has been the end of many a diving bird not to mention the odd neesik or two.

 

Yes, I would agree with that Robert but as far as trawling and most other commercial fishing is concerned there not many birds killed. Most will be as a result of getting tangled in discarded gear - which might have been dumped on the other side of the ocean and have nothing to do with local boats anyway.

[shetlandpeat]

Any fishing that involves nets or bait. No need to list really.

 

No need to list, or you cannot list? You have slandered every hardworking fisherman in Shetland who risk their lives in all weathers to put a healthy meal on folks plates, but you won't back up your statement with facts? Poor show really.

 

No I havn't. If you are going to tell me that no island boats have had no part in by-catch with birds when it is a concern everywhere else, then there is something wrong. If you want me to list every type of net fishing or fishing with bait to suit a diversionary argument on whether fishing, from the isles kills birds or not, or more than anywhere else then there is still something wrong.

If you were to look at the posts from when Shetlink first started by the mods, there is a statement that sez I or any other poster is not obliged to post all the links, proof or any other evidence. It would be the same as me asking for you to prove that, with evidence that no birds have been by-catch in any of the current, and recent fishing types by island boats anywhere in the world.

There could be many reasons why such info is not publicly available, I will not speculate on why.

[unlinkedstudent]

Any fishing that involves nets or bait. No need to list really.

 

No need to list, or you cannot list? You have slandered every hardworking fisherman in Shetland who risk their lives in all weathers to put a healthy meal on folks plates, but you won't back up your statement with facts? Poor show really.

 

No I havn't. If you are going to tell me that no island boats have had no part in by-catch with birds when it is a concern everywhere else, then there is something wrong. If you want me to list every type of net fishing or fishing with bait to suit a diversionary argument on whether fishing, from the isles kills birds or not, or more than anywhere else then there is still something wrong.

If you were to look at the posts from when Shetlink first started by the mods, there is a statement that sez I or any other poster is not obliged to post all the links, proof or any other evidence. It would be the same as me asking for you to prove that, with evidence that no birds have been by-catch in any of the current, and recent fishing types by island boats anywhere in the world.

There could be many reasons why such info is not publicly available, I will not speculate on why.

 

There's info in the public domain though on interconnector cables getting snagged and damaged, resulting in them being unable to be used to full capacity and hence output from the windfarm that supplies it being cut back dramatically.

 

1. http://www.larnetimes.co.uk/news/business/storms_delay_20m_moyle_interconnector_repairs_1_3409872#

 

2. http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/03/16/dnv-establishes-joint-industry-project-to-manage-subsea-power-cabling-risk-in-offshore-wind-farms-norway/

 

3. http://www.energyengineering.co.uk/latestissue/EE19_PMSS.html

[derick]

If this project was indeed for Shetland, then one could put forward the argument that the incompetent twits at the Charitable Trust/SIC (whichever cap fits) would have ensured they were the major shareholders - they are not.

 

Nevertheless the fact is it originated in Shetland, as much as with SSE

 

larger shareholding = larger investment =larger risk. I am fairly sure that there would have been a lot more shouting if the CT had a majority shareholding!

 

VE has a lot to do with Salmond; if it wasn't for his pathetic pie-in-the-sky view that Scotland is going to be powered 100% by renewables and if he wasn't so in favour of such half-baked ideas, you can bet your bottom dollar (given your Americanism of spelling in your post ) that his Energy Minister would NOT have rubber-stamped it.

 

I see.

 

SIC started looking at windfarms in, what, early 2000s?

Viking Energy/SSE memorandum of agreement was signed in 2005

The SNP was elected to (minority) government in 2007.

The 100% equivalent, far from being pie in the sky, perfectly achievable target, was set in May 2011

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/05/18093247

 

I can only assume du thinks Mr S influenced VE via some sort of TARDIS device??

 

As I said, the minister is not in a position to refuse (or approve) valid planning applications on a political whim. As is always the case.

 

Mechanical things break. shock horror. lay 2 cables.

[Redrobbie99]

What puzzles me is when this was all first preposed VE stated that there had to be at least 123 turbines to make it all viable but it has now been wittiled down to 103 turbines .So how is it now viable are the turbines going to be bigger/ more powerfull or what has changed.

[derick]

What puzzles me is when this was all first preposed VE stated that there had to be at least 123 turbines to make it all viable but it has now been wittiled down to 103 turbines .So how is it now viable are the turbines going to be bigger/ more powerfull or what has changed.

 

The Shetland Crimes says more powerful. The 123 was based on 132m tall 3.6mw turbines, so the net effect of all the amendments and objections is fewer, bigger machines.

 

http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2012/04/05/turbine-upgrade-may-be-way-forward-for-viking

[shetlandpeat]

There are far more things for snagging than a marked submarine cable.

 

The fishing industry has long been associated with the contribution of marine pollution but little work has been done on the effects on the industry itself of marine debris and other pollution.

 

http://www.kimointernational.org/MarineLitter.aspx

 

There is some interesting stuff, while I was wasting my time on the internet.

 

 

Northern Fulmar, Fulmarus glacialis

This sea bird has greatly increased in numbers during the historical period, perhaps a result of

benefiting from fisheries operations as these birds commonly feed behind boats on discarded scraps.

They follow working fishing ships, often in great numbers and because of their aggressive feeding

behavior are likely to become by-catch victims.

 

 

http://www.wicbirds.net/gomprofiles2.pdf

 

I am no way saying that Shetland fisherfolk are all bad, bird by-catch happens, all over the world, sadly though, as with the black fish saga at the Catch and evidence such as this..

 

http://wn.com/a_norwegian_coastguard_vessel_took_the_video_footage_of_the_shetland_boat

 

makes the pinpointing of figures relating to bird by-catch hard. If you are still going to maintain that there is no bird by-catch, then you could be deluded. I have not indicated that Shetland fisherfolk do this (bird by-catch) deliberately.

 

There has even been discussions about the fishing industry "paying back" for by catch with the help in eradicating rats from breeding colonies/island.

 

On of the references quoted was this

 

De Leo´n A, Mı´nguez E, Harvey P, Meek E, Crane J, et al. (2006) Factors affecting breeding distribution of Storm-petrels Hydrobates pelagicus in Orkney

and Shetland. Bird Study 53: 64–72.

 

In this document...(the site this is from is very interesting and covers many topics, peer produced stuff tends, in my mind to work...)

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004826

 

Also this report....

 

Virtually all types of gear used in zones in which

seabirds feed may catch birds. Common guillemots have

been recorded in sandeel (Ammodytes spp.) trawls in the

North Sea used in the feeding area of a colony (M. L.

Tasker, personal observation). A minimum of 22 birds

were caught in five hauls (others may have been missed

due to bulk processing of the catch).

 

And.....

 

Birds may also become entangled in lost fishing gear

(lines as well as nets), but few systematic studies have

been conducted. Gannets and cormorants are notorious

in picking up floating debris, including netting, from the

sea surface to use as nesting material instead of seaweed.

Camphuysen (1990a) reported that 92% of 465 checked

gannet nests in Shetland contained some visible nylon,

while 50% contained virtually nothing else. As a result,

adults and chicks may become entangled and die from

starvation (Montevecchi, 1991). Not surprisingly, the

northern gannet and great cormorant (Phalacrocorax

carbo) ranked highest among 90 species of stranded

marine birds, of which 138 500 corpses were checked for

entanglements as cause of death in the southern North

Sea. Some 5% of all beached northern gannets checked

(n=1363) were entangled in ropes or fishing gear, while

2% of all great cormorants (n=298) had suffered a

similar fate (Camphuysen, 1990b, 1994). While the

mortality associated with this type of pollution appears

to be low, all indications are that the amount of debris

consisting of fishing gear/number of incidences has

increased substantially during the 1970s and 1980s

(Montevecchi, 1991).

 

I am not also saying that all losses of net are deliberate either...

 

http://icesjms.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/3/531.full.pdf

 

My five or ten minutes searching has revealed an Aladdins cave of information regarding this, please, do not think that Shetland fisherfolk can avoid some problems. Some, they can take an active role in, though they will be battling against the world.

This has opened my eyes to far more than a squabble about the piety of some.

[crofter]

No I havn't.

 

Yes, you have. Here is your original quote where you accuse Shetland Fishermen of killing birds

 

The fishing industry kills far more birds than wind farms, why you think that if you have only seen a thumb full it is representative of the whole fishing industry in Shetland. A bit anal that.

 

I don't see where it says in the T&Cs you can post anything you like, what you have suggested is defamatory to every Shetland fisherman.

 

It would be the same as me asking for you to prove that, with evidence that no birds have been by-catch in any of the current, and recent fishing types by island boats .

 

No, it is not the same. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? I would not make up a pack of lies about you and then say that the lies should be considered true until you proved they were lies. But that is what you are saying should happen when you lie about the whole fishing industry in Shetland.

[crofter]

[crofter]

[shetlandpeat]

Well, if Dratsy has said he has only seen two birds killed because of fishing and he is just one out of many, it stands to reason that there are more.

 

The quote also was in respect that Dratsy had only himself seen no more that two killed and that represents the Islands fishing industry. Which, if put back in context was the subject.

 

If you want me to find more about stuff Shetland Fisher folk have done I will, when I have more time to waste.

 

If you also go back to where I said "look back at the posts" that is what I meant. Nothing to do with the T&Cs. I look forward to your summons.

[shetlandpeat]

We have seen by the post Kavi made that wind turbines are put up without any lengthy consultation. I am sure that the planning for V.E. will be extensive and very costly. It will also take all the facts into consideration.

They are also talking about raptors, which are very well protected here, apart from the idiots who shoot them for fun.

There is no body saying there will be any bird strikes, but as Derick posted, 0.01% compared to 10% by cats and many more by our lifestyles and our need to feed ourselves.

I wonder how many folk, after reading this will put markers on their larger windows and not use the car, because we know birds are good.

 

As you are showing us vids on Raptors, here is some more on how pesticides are killing ours.

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/wingprayer_tcm9-188788.pdf

[stilldellin]

^ Is a Raptor something that eats Wombles or was it Wimbles ?