Shetland windfarm - Viking Energy

[petrocelli_]

Well, i'll be contrary then Petrocelli, i'll take the moral low ground and say that i'd actually prefer a nuclear station to come here. Less environmental impact, less aesthetic impact, more jobs, equally good revenue potential, less harm to wildlife (birds). Perhaps more. Endless potential!

 

WOW! That's a bit of a quantum leap Njugle! Am aware that Nuclear is supposed to be so much safer now but I would still be against such a scheme. However, I really do not know enough about the pros and cons of nuclear power to get into that debate suffice to say that nuclear just scares the crap out of me! I am aware though that there is a very strong argument re. its supposedly green qualities! There's no other form of power out there that can have such devastating effects if things go wrong though.

 

You say you've seen nothing valid against it, i take it you've read the whole of this thread before coming to that conclusion, no?

 

I have read every page on here at one time or another and have revisited most again recently. A lot of interesting points, for and against, made by both opponents and supporters but nothing that has made me think that this project should not be investigated further.

 

I have the utmost respect for those planning the windfarm and utmost admiration for their efforts and methods. But that doesn't mean i accept the plan as it stands. It's not an all or nothing scenario and the political aspects of the proposal are still questionable, which makes me wary of the potential of the project from several angles.

 

Fair enough, you've mentioned that you would prefer nuclear over the current plan but at what stage would a windfarm be agreeable to you, if at all, given that the smaller the windfarm the less economically viable it becomes.

[thephantomoftheopera]

petrocelli_

Are you aware of the actual devestation that this project will cause, and have you taken into account that the VE might not be telling people the entire truth.

 

[/b]Take Into account that VE have not planned ahead and ask them questions and see how they always hesitate to answer

 

Just a thought

[petrocelli_]

petrocelli_

Are you aware of the actual devestation that this project will cause, and have you taken into account that the VE might not be telling people the entire truth.

 

Devastation, oh! Unlike the inept VE boys you have obviously looked into all the different scenarios. Yes, I bet you've spent oodles of hours working out all the different angles on the installation of a windfarm, have you? You've contacted engineering companies, you've done environmental studies, you've done various other assessments, yes, no? Sorry, I'll answer that one for you Phantom... no you haven't!

 

So if it's ok with you Phantom I'll go with VE on this one as they are looking into all the different requirements to install a windfarm. That's all they're doing at the moment they're looking into the possibility of constructing one and what would be required.

 

Around the end of March the new interactive map should be available and they will also be producing another Windylights brochure. Let's see what that brings and then we can have a fresh round of posts to see where we're at.

 

If you want to be purely cycnical and think that "those buggers are lying, I just know it" then feel free to continue that thought!

 

Take Into account that VE have not planned ahead and ask them questions and see how they always hesitate to answer

 

My dear friend you are simply talking out your poop hole! I have heard very little hesitation from VE yet on anything as they seem very forthcoming with constant information. They are quite clearly planning ahead, look at all the information that is already out there. Go on, send them an email, ask them anything you want.

 

If you've got an example of such hesitation please feel free to enlighten me.

[ArabiaTerra]

Are you aware of the actual devestation that this project will cause

Are you aware of the certain devastation that will be caused by Global Warming if we do nothing? This assumption that, if we don't build the windfarm, everything will carry on as if nothing was happening is really starting to annoy me. The world is facing a crises which dwarf's anything since WW2 and the effects will be global (global, by the way, includes Shetland). We have to act.

 

I'm not saying that the windfarm, on it's own, will prevent Global Warming, but every community in the developed world has a moral duty to fix the mess we've made of this planet. Given the stupendous benefits Shetland has accrued from the Oil industry (the cause of Global Warming), the windfarm is the least we can do.

[ArabiaTerra]

^^^^ P.S, If we can make some money out of it and maintain our energy rich lifestyles, then so much the better.

[petrocelli_]

Good point well put Arabia.

 

I've stayed clear of this side of things but it is amazing the approach some folk have to this subject. Most accept it as gospel that it's happening but want to do sod all about themselves, classic NIMBY syndrome! When there's an opportunity that they can actually put something in place that will make a difference they block it on every front. "Yeh, let's save the world but your no ruining wur peat bog tae do it !"

 

If you look at all the proposed renewable energy projects around the UK today, wind or tidal mainly, nearly every single one has objections. From whom I hear you say... environmentalists, that's who!!! I find that whole situation just slightly ironic, don't you?!

 

There is no known power source which can be harnessed without some amount of disruption. As long as we are seen to be trying to make these projects co-exist with the surrounding environments then we will have to accept that they're may be a small sacrifice to pay for such developments.

[thephantomoftheopera]

So you would rather see Shetland plastered in huge 400ft turbines and the hills covered in concrete, the burns running dry, fish dried out their homes, etc, Just for a bit of cash

[ArabiaTerra]

So you would rather see Shetland plastered in huge 400ft turbines and the hills covered in concrete, the burns running dry, fish dried out their homes, etc, Just for a bit of cash

 

See, now you're using the tactics of creationists and climate change sceptics. Ignore 90% of what's said and just cherry-pick the tiny part which supports your own particular viewpoint/prejudice.

 

Oh yes, and hysterical exaggeration is also a recognised tactic. Keep going, you're well on the way to becoming qualified to join the flat-earth society as well.

[PJ of Hildisvik]

The "Phantom" does'nt speak for everyone opposed to industrial scale windfarms!!

[petrocelli_]

So you would rather see Shetland plastered in huge 400ft turbines and the hills covered in concrete, the burns running dry, fish dried out their homes, etc, Just for a bit of cash

 

Initially I wasn't even gonna give that post a reply Phantom but, ah, what the hell.

 

Shetland will not be plastered with turbines, only the area around the Lang Kames. Furthermore, the hills will not be "plastered" with concrete. The burns will not "run dry, fish dried out of their homes":cry:

 

No as you said earlier let's get on with this windfarm topic and no more of your nonsense! Or at the very least make your arguments a bit more, erhmm..... CONCRETE!

 

The "Phantom" does'nt speak for everyone opposed to industrial scale windfarms!!

 

Erh, thanks for pointing that one out PJ but I was fully aware that Phantom speaks for his/herself! I didn't even think for one minute that he/she was chairperson of the Shetland Against Windfarms Group. But, if he/she is I would thoroughly recommend that they look for new guidance as he/she does their case absolutely no good.

[crofter]

Are you aware of the certain devastation that will be caused by Global Warming if we do nothing?

Oh yes, and hysterical exaggeration is also a recognised tactic.

 

Some of the advocates of global warming are also pretty hysterical. I think there is probably not much chance that we can deliberately change the climate, a few windmills in Shetland will have no significant impact when you look at what is happening in eg China. (Assuming the GW doomsayers are correct in the first place) It is pure spin to present the windfarm as some kind of environmental saviour, it is driven by potential cash returns and nothing else. The income from the energy produced is also dependant on continuing subsidies, hands up who trusts the government???

[Carlos]

There is certainly a lot of exaggeration of the likely effects of climate change. Sea level rises of 10s of meters, and mass extinctions etc etc.

 

Unfortunately, when you bring it down to the likely changes, things are still bad enough. It is not so much that life cannot adapt to the new climate, the historical temperature records show that it just keeps on going, the biggest problem is that human society is very adapted to the current setup, with not a lot of spare capacity in the system to deal with changes smoothly.

 

A run of a few years of "different" weather, crop yields down 10%, inflation, shortage of fossil fuels, market crash.....

If you look through human history you will find a whole string of societies which have rises, prospered and then died off quickly. In a lot of cases that can be traced to over expansion during a string of "good" years, followed by a crash when they cannot adapt to the downswing in the cycle.

 

Since 1751 roughly 315 billion tons of carbon have been released to the atmosphere from the consumption of fossil fuels and cement production. Half of these emissions have occurred since the mid 1970s. Just because the changes are not particularly clear as of yet, it does not mean they will not come.

 

You say that income from the windfarm depends on government subsidy, and that is true, but again unfortunately that is only a factor if energy prices across the board stay much the same. I'd like that to be true, it'd certainly help us out, but the only sensible prediction is that prices will keep rising.

[petrocelli_]

Some of the advocates of global warming are also pretty hysterical. I think there is probably not much chance that we can deliberately change the climate, a few windmills in Shetland will have no significant impact when you look at what is happening in eg China. (Assuming the GW doomsayers are correct in the first place) It is pure spin to present the windfarm as some kind of environmental saviour, it is driven by potential cash returns and nothing else. The income from the energy produced is also dependant on continuing subsidies, hands up who trusts the government???

 

I have to agree with you here Crofter. There is much hysteria out there when it comes to global warming and I'm not totally sold on how extensive or how quickly we will see drastic events happening. It is also quite hard to imagine what effect we (the world) could have by trying to stave off such events by renewables alone. If the problem is as bad as feared then it will need more lateral thinking than just renewable energy solutions.

 

However, it cannot be denied that the burning of fossil fuels as a means of generating electricity have a limited lifespan. Also, emissions from such processes can in no way, shape or form be good for the environment, even if we don't believe global warmers!

 

And when it comes to building a windfarm you're quite right we're not going to be able to dig China out of their hole. But, mony a mickle maks a muckle as they say.

 

If Shetland can dramatically reduce its emissions then we can say we've done our bit. Also, to me their is something intrinsically beautiful about capturing wind, wave and tidal power. The fact that we could be using resources which are totally sustainable has to be a better existence than the one we are living at this moment in time.

 

Njugle made a very good suggestion a while back in this topic whereby he mentioned the idea of an interpretive renewables centre. I would fully back such an idea. A place where we could see the timeline from oil to renewables. How we took proceeds from oil and established a renewables industry here in the Shetland Islands and the many benefits which we enjoy as a result. Hopefully in time those renewables will expand into other areas such as tidal, wave and even the production of hydrogen.

 

If this ever proves to be the case then we could say that we played our part in the future prosperity of our islands, at the same time enhancing the quality of life for generations to come. If we miss this opportunity then I don't see anything on the immediate horizon which could fill such a pending void!

[crofter]

I am not fundamentally opposed to the windfarm. But in its present form, I think it is too big, and if it is not viable without subsidy it is a very risky venture. It would be good to know the assumptions which VE are using to calculate the return of £18 million to the community - is that a best case or worst case scenario?

Climate change is now accepted as a reality, ....... Shetland is the windiest place in Europe ........

(From the Shetland Times)

 

I agree that the climate is changing. I am a bit more dubious about the possibility that we can control it. I wonder if Viking Energy have considered that climate change may alter the jetstream, reducing the quality of the Shetland wind resource?

[petrocelli_]

I'm looking forward to and fully expecting Pete Ellis to reply to Stuart Hill's letter in the Shetland News. His final par makes a serious misinterpretation on the 'retiring' of ROCS.

 

http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/letters_03_2008/RSPB%20must%20answer%20charges.htm

 

More worryingly, the consipiracy theorist of all conspiracy theorists does actually have a couple of interesting points re. Mr Gore and the apparent recovery of the polar ice cap. I suspect that both these points could actually have some basis of truth.

 

But that's about as far as I'm willing to agree with Mr Hill!