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  1. For me, Brexit was the apex because it represented a tipping point for one of the world's longest functioning democracies (a model upon which many Western democracies are based) and a failure of the classic view of the 4 Estates of Democracy. We are now in a new era in the UK where it is 'acceptable' for the government (the Executive) to ignore Parliament (the Legislature) and the courts (the Judiciary) and use the media (the 4th Estate, which has traditionally had a function to hold the other 3 to account) to manipulate voters into voting for something which would demonstrably make the majority worse off. Personally, I feel that the move from 'editorial' media to 'social' media has rendered the function of the 4th Estate, to a large degree, obsolete. Mass manipulation seems quite straightforward on Social Media (e.g. Facebook–Cambridge Analytica data scandal). Folk will believe what they want to believe, do very little in the way of fact checking, and seem particularly susceptible to simple false equivalences (e.g. the infamous NHS Bus blaming the EU for government's underinvestment in health services, and the government blaming immigrants for their underinvestment in social services and housing in deprived areas). It all seems very plausible to many people, and Social Media provides the online echo chambers for these manipulations to take hold and become accepted as fact. All the government then has to do is present their latest legislation as the silver bullet to shoot the bogeyman they created, and call anyone who challenges them 'undemocratic' or 'unpatriotic'
    4 points
  2. The 'all politicians are liars' line of discussion is quite tedious, and quite frankly nonsense. I studied politics as a student, worked alongside several politicians at various levels during my career and still take a keen interest in it. There are many politicians of great integrity, past and present, and at all levels of local and national politics, who have contributed very positively to society. However, in all the years I have followed politics I have never seen such blatant dishonesty as that which came from, in the most part, the pro-Brexit politicians and the media outlets which amplified their jingoistic nonsense and glossed over their disregard for due process. They played to the gallery, and promised things that were obviously impossible, with apparent impunity. I feel Brexit was probably the lowest point in British politics for several generations.
    3 points
  3. Here’s an idea. Let’s see if we can have a discussion without it going off topic with anti Westminster ‘witticisms’
    3 points
  4. Certainly the more local the issue, the better the quality of information and debate that can be had. Its the stuff where you have little knowledge of the issue, locality or who are or aren't the more reliable sources of info that thing get rapidly more murky. Classic example, the BLM 'riots' the other side of the pond a bit back, mainstream media was describing them as 'largely peaceful protests' at the same time as numerous photos of 'rioters' silhouetted against blazing vehicles and whole streets of smashed shop windows and looted shops were being posted on other sites. Ummmmm......... Either there were an awful lot of fake photos, or if that was mainstream media definition of 'largely peaceful', I'd not be keen to meet their definition of 'largely violent'.
    2 points
  5. And it's not like those pushing for Brexit had a good record (I'm being kind here) of delivering on their past promises either; yet they got their way. They remain in power, have made stacks of cash and don't look to be stopping any more of that any time soon. It's all well and good saying if whoever is in charge cock things up they'll get voted out... but that's completely ignoring the reality of who those people are, who they're controlled by and their control of the media with the ability to destroy any and all opposition. But enough folk jumped on the relevant hook that fitted with what they wanted and got them over the line.
    2 points
  6. The fundamental challenge the Remain side was that their only option was to try to point out the benefits of the status quo whilst preaching caution - never the 'sexy' option - whilst the Leave had the benefit of being able to paint pictures of a multiple different futures in which everyone's lives would be better. Remain meant more of the same, whilst Leave was a hotchpotch of scenarios and promises with little detail to back any of up - Leave just had to persuade people that at least one of these competing scenarios would benefit them (from my estimation, there was at least 6 or 7 fundamentally different scenarios that came under the umbrella of 'Brexit')
    2 points
  7. The strangest phenomenon is people ignoring their own eyes and ears, I’m not talking about reading it online or hearing it on the news, I mean first hand experience. The “Covid’s fake” and “Brexit’s great” people are the most baffling to me. They must live in bubbles listening to conspiracy theorists on youtube.
    1 point
  8. Indeed. I've been involved in some online discussions that are basically people Googling whatever the subject is and posting links back and forth to each other without actually reading or digesting the information. When I were a lad.... books and articles were read, experienced people were listened to, thoughts were pondered and some clarity was reached before mouths were opened. Now folk seem happy to find the first article they feel backs their point up and post that saying "see..." whilst believing that to be research. I wonder if, in the age of information, we are losing our abilities to process the information in a meaningful way?
    1 point
  9. BigMouth

    Local labour shortage

    We don't really need an incentive to work. Before long automation will have pushed a good few of us out of the workforce. UBI might be an easier way of paying benefits as well as keeping us off the streets.
    1 point
  10. BigMouth

    Local labour shortage

    You'll never get UBI under a Tory government in Westmonster. They hate anyone getting anything for free unless it is them and theirs. The hospitality industry has always been one for exploiting people, and my experience of it here was no different. I was living in Hoofields and applied for a job at one of the hotels here. The owner seemed keen, and even suggested that I should move out of Hoofields into one of the staff rooms in the hotel. He certainly wasn't offering that to benefit me. He obviously wanted me living over the shop so that I could be on call 24 hours a day. If I had a share in the business it might have had some attraction, but as a minimum wage flunky I was definitely not interested, and let him know that the job was very much a stop gap until a proper job came along. Hard work, poor pay, long hours, tied accommodation, little thanks, who would be queueing up to work in such an industry?
    1 point
  11. Perhaps, because it is a global phenomenon ? It's the power (and major failure) of social media. It has become so 'cliquey' that, unless you share an opinion that is common with the majority, you become something of an outcast. Television News, I don't bother watching it these days. Far to much 'drivel' and opinion pieces in there. Not enough substance. Newspapers, I haven't bought one in years. As with television, except that they stick 'boobs' on page 3 or something. They lie more than politicians do. Politics, I ALWAYS cast my vote. Generally based on the historic performance of particular candidates. Still doesn't guarantee that they will not mess it up though.
    1 point
  12. Spinner72

    Local labour shortage

    I think it might surprise a lot of folk just how many people are in (a). One of the big problems is zero hours contracts, as they pretty much eliminate people from being abe to claim the "Top up" benefits, as there isn't a fixed weekly/monthly wage. Might be £400 this week, but only £100 next week. In that sense, a carefully structured UBI would certainly be a better system, so long as it still offers an incentive to work.
    1 point
  13. I agree, and there's several factors at play, some of which vex me greatly: A debasement of the media - the 4th estate of democracy - people no longer expect to pay for news, investigative journalism is on its knees, and news has been replaced by opinion-ised 'infotainment' Statistics show that attention spans are going down across the board, particularly amongst younger people (the endless scroll of social media.....) Participation in consensus politics and local democracy has been replaced by online echo-chambers and keyboard warrior-ism - everyone has the ability to share ill-informed opinions without consequence, and there seems to be more of a desire to prove everyone else wrong that to actually put our collective heads together to solve problems and build a better future Brexit was the apex of the above
    1 point
  14. Think we proved one thing at the last election. Boris convinced people to double down on brexit because folk were getting bored of it. Single biggest decision to effect this country in over a generation and folk voted for Boris because he said he would just get on with it. In years to come I know my bairn will ask how we allowed Boris Johnson and his corrupt band of pals to wreck this country and all I'll be able to say is because folk were getting bored of the debate as to whether or not it was a good idea and if we wanted to work for a better deal. We've become a nation of halfwits with the attention span of a mayfly. Everything that is happening to us now is because we have become easily manipulated. Nobody bothers to look into sod all anymore. But yeah brexit, great opportunity missed.
    1 point
  15. Folk can only vote for what's on the ballot. You either vote for whom you feel is the lesser evil, or you don't vote at all and risk other's votes will put in whom you judge to be the worst evil. Not having a Parliament/Government isn't an option, even if nobody voted a Parliament/Government would be appointed for us, one way pr another, even if it only was everything being dumped on the House of Lords instead. Them, we apparently can't get rid of (yet anyway) however bad they are or may become. At least with the drunk, you can choose to refuse them their keys and leave them to stumble around until they find a ditch to sleep it off in.
    1 point
  16. Rasmie

    Brexit (merged threads)

    I seem to remember a referendum on joining the Common Market. I think Shetland was one of the few places that voted against! Even my Up tally ho squad had a skit about it. Edwards Economic Cock-up. But referendums aren’t democratic. IMHO
    1 point
  17. Evil Inky

    Brexit (merged threads)

    He did. This is a quote from the Conservative Party manifesto for the 1970 election:
    1 point
  18. ^But he didn't tell us what he was going to do, did he. Very masked IMHO.
    1 point
  19. I would strongly disagree with that; they were voted in to power. It's a bit like handing a set of keys to a well known drunk staggering towards their car and then blaming them when they crash.
    1 point
  20. ^ What does Brexit have to do with fuel or food? The UK has gas, oil, coal and if worst comes to worst, still some trees, we produce most commonly consumed meats and a whole plethora of vegetables, and fish And we managed to be self-sufficient in the the last time we had a little spat with Continentals..... Any shortage of any of it is mismanagement by the fools in charge. Of course, if you wanna eat nothing but unidentifiable, unpronouncable, inedible weird foreign dishes, that probably is a different matter. Boris only got the job because he was the only fool stupid enough to take it on, the rest didn't even have the balls to try. Miracles were not expected, and we have not been disappointed..... As the saying goes, 'You can lead a horse to water.......'Or in the case of Brexit, you can lead politicians to opportunities, but when you only have a very sorry looking bunch available to work with, what they do with them is unlikely to rank above 'poorly'. If Brexit doesn't work, its the fault of the politicians who made it that way, Brexit in and of itself has no pre-determined course or consequences, it needs someone else to drive its every move. So if the French snails are turning up sour, or the Spanish pears are all mouldly, shout at the politicians, hang them from the yard arm, feed them to the lions along with a few christians, whatever. Its their doing, their's and nobody or nothing else's.
    1 point
  21. Empty supermarket shelves and soaring gas and electricity prices. Never saw that printed on the side of the big red Brexit bus. Even if we end up having to eat cabbage soup in our freezing cold houses under candlelight I’m sure there will still be Brexit voters telling us it was all a brilliant idea.
    1 point
  22. Ah, I see. Japanese names tend to have this problem quite a lot. I've heard there is some music in Shetland's native Nordic language, Norn. The language is quite interesting but I can't find sufficient enough learning resources to actually fully learn it. There's a Norn song on YouTube about a boat but that's it sadly, hopefully more is out there. Shetland has always been a very interesting place to me, I want to visit Lerwick and Unst someday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB8StG8JSA8
    1 point
  23. What does Westminster have to do with cooking?
    1 point
  24. Colin

    Brexit (merged threads)

    I thought that politicians on both sides of the argument lied in equal measure. Only a complete idiot would have believed more than two words that any of them spoke. I used my personal judgement (right or wrong, who knows?) to vote the way I saw fit. As for price hikes. That's just 'capitalism' at work. Not that it sits well with me as a lot of the rises are 'because we can' and not 'because we have to'. Gas doesn't really cost any more to get out of the ground. It doesn't have to be 'produced' as such. Just tighten the supply and increase the price. Oldest trick in the book. The problem with the NHS is that it has been a political 'football' for decades. It also suffers from a lack of any real boundaries in who, or what it treats, and because of this, it has been abused (to a degree) by patients. It has lost it's way. However, selling the choice bits off to the highest bidder is, imho, NOT the best way forward. Who on earth would want an Americanised 'for profit' NHS where the choice can be, quite literally, between a lifetime of debt, or death. Far better to pay a little extra in taxes and keep the money grubbing parasites out. Yes, I know that we already have a 'for profit' medical sector where you can pay (often the same doctors etc.) for early treatment etc. Why are these people allowed to use NHS facilities? If you want to pay twice, go ahead, it's your choice.
    1 point
  25. ^ Price hikes occur all the time for any old excuse, in or out of the EU, always have. The NHS depletion began in the 70's while in the EU and has proceed apace until there's so little of the original left people have begun to notice more if even one little bit alters. With Little Lord Fauntleroy's ventriliquist dummy running the White House, American involvement won't be much for the next three years, the dummy don't like us much, nor the fact we have a pseudo capitalist mob in charge. Regardless the U.S. dummy and his supporting bunch of socialist freaks sticking their nose in is better than having Stalag Merkel and her lap dog One Micron's version of Socialism rolling over us.
    1 point
  26. Roachmill

    Brexit (merged threads)

    Taking "all politicians lie" as read; which ones lied the most? The ones saying things would be better or worse? And, before anyone says it's a long game, would they please take a moment to think about whether they honestly see price hikes, depletion of the NHS and general American involvments being reversed once we're "back in control"... ever. Apologies for the air quotes.
    1 point
  27. ReeseTheDundonian

    Boris Johnson

    Looking back on my old comment, I could see I was being a bit rude and brash. But I do still believe that there have been a lot of crappy politicians, as well some good ones. Boris does genuinely show compassion and care for his country and people but Scots down in the mainland seem to rage just by mentioning his name. My family is heavily conservative and unionist, my dad's side is Glaswegian and has been devout Protestant Unionist since the religion was basically invented. They seem to lean more to Boris's way of thinking. I don't know much about politics so I'm mostly neutral on it all, I just want what's best for our little island. Boris seems to be doing a decent job at the moment and the country doesn't look as if it's about to explode into a million pieces. But that isn't to say I like him either, nor do I like Nicola Sturgeon. I don't like what SNP have done with education and I'm sceptical of the independence referendum. I don't think all of the PMs have been corrupt, but nobody is perfect.
    1 point
  28. Minimum wage + 60p (pence) is hardly going to make the earth move. It's only £20 or so for a full 40 hour week. Even less for those on 'zero hours'. IMHO, it is NOT a living wage.
    1 point
  29. Evil Inky

    Local labour shortage

    In addition, many jobs require qualifications: if an employer is looking for a time-served joiner, someone with a degree in astronomy isn't going to be any use to them.
    1 point
  30. Sorry, but I am pretty well familiar with the local employment market. Maybe you should try taking a closer look. I know quite a number of people who struggle on minimum wage BECAUSE the cost of living is higher up here. I also know a few employers who pay the minimum wage BECAUSE that is the minimum that they have to pay. The result is that the minimum wage employees have to claim some of the various Government top ups/allowances that are available. I would be happy if anybody could explain to me just why the taxpayer, in general, should have to subsidise/top up the wages paid by some employers. As for 'slavery', if you cannot make ends meet in a low paid job, then it IS economic slavery. OK, folk have an opt out in so much as they can choose not to work at all, and depend on the state to keep them alive. Given some of the 'zero hours', 'minimum wage' jobs around here, who can blame them? Why bust a gut working some anti-social hours job only to be looked down on by your customers who are, somehow, 'better' than them. Nobody really wants to live on 'hand outs' and EVERYBODY is entitled to a fair days pay for a fair days work.
    1 point
  31. The situation should never have arisen in the first place that businesses have relied on foreigners who were willing to work for peanuts to survive. Brexit has simply brought to a head an exploitation issue that's been quietly swept under the carpet for years. The EU 'open borders' policy contained a 'loophole' that created the situation, Brexit has closed it and shown the situation for what it was. It shouldn't have ever been allowed to have been created in the first place, but it was, through Westminster's implementation of Brussels' edicts, and now the mess is going to have to be swept up.
    1 point
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