Trønder

Well, it started with a question about whether or not there had been any linguistic, or place name for that matter, evidence for it. Sorry for hijacking the thread. Yes, it seems probable that the Sami, or more correctly the ancestors of the Sami, were the original inhabitants of Fenno-Scandinavia. Whether the "Norwegians" and "Swedes" were Germanic tribes moving in or a people that moved in and later became Germanic-speaking is a more open question as i understand it though. As was pointed out in another thread on these boards there is a significant genetic difference between Norwegians and Danes. It could be a combination of both I guess, as places like Romerike and Hordaland are supposedly named after old Germanic tribes. There are also place names in southern Norway with no know Indo-European (or Finno-Ugric) explanations, not that I can remember any examples off the top of my head. I read a theory many years ago that we are the same people as the Finnish, but that the Norwegians/Swedes were later Germanified. I don't know if there is any hold in it though.

They are the same. Lapp is an now obsolete Scandinavian name for the Sami. They have also been called Finns, as they speak Finno-Ugric languages related to Finnish. Both can be considered derogatory, at least if used by Norwegians or Swedes. It is very interesting that there is an oral tradition in Shetland. I find it more likely that it is the Sami, if the stories are true. The Sami population stretches quite far south in Norway, and there is evidence that it stretched well into southern Norway in the past. It is much shorter from southern Norway to Shetland than from Greenland, and besides, the Dorset culture in Greenland had been dying out during the first millennium. Most of Greenland, except maybe the extreme north, was empty when the Norwegians and Icelanders got there in the 10th century and the Inuits who live there now are the descendants of later movement of people from Arctic Canada. There has been a lot of intermarriage throughout the centuries so the distinction between Norwegian and Sami is blurred, but traditionally the Sami have been smaller, darker and had higher cheekbones. I found this old picture on Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Saami_Family_1900.jpg/800px-Saami_Family_1900.jpg

Oh, don't mind me, write Shaetlan all you like. I'll improve.

Why hasn't the British coast guard procured the Merlin?

A lot of Norwegian interest in Shetland too, I see.

538, actually...

Of course, we shouldn't forget that the explanation for British genes in the pre-industrial era "West Norse" islands can be just as much a result of Norse-British intermarriage and Norse men taking British slave women as a remains of a previous British population. No doubt you will find British genes in mainland Norway as well. I doubt that we will ever get the complete picture, not that it is really important to the identity building of today.

Bad experience?

Actually it was 60% of the Y chromosomes in Orkney and Shetland that came from Western Norway, 30% in Durness in the Hebrides and 15% in the Isle of Man, all having been subject to the Norwegian crown. http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/genetics.htm This study has similar numbers for Orkney and Shetland, but quite a bit higher for Iceland. http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v95/n2/abs/6800661a.html

Russian navy distrupts access to N.Sea oilfields OSLO, Nov 11 (Reuters) Norwegian oil and gas producer StatoilHydro has suspended helicopter flights to some of its main fields in the North Sea due to Russian navy exercises in nearby international waters, the company said on Tuesday. http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssEnergyNews/idUSL115126720071211 http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/52/520/520894/h8582_1197388361.jpg <- picture Nothing but trouble...

Antarctic even? That would be the South Shetland Islands. Or, if you want to be formal, Hjaltland.

Why would you want KFC?

Your vote on independence? That is only relevant if Shetland currently receives all the government oil revenues from the Shetlandic continental shelf, which I doubt, because it would as an independent country. I don't know what your current "self-reliance deficit" is, but I find it hard to believe, even in the post-Peak Oil period, that the oil revenues would not be enough for 22,000 Shetlanders. The Shetlandic continental shelf would be huge compared to the population. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Rockall_EEZ.jpg New technology and a high oil price make old fields and fields that were not profitable before viable. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1524530.stm There are also new finds. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4080525.stm This is an important subject, if one is to consider independence for Shetland, and it would interesting to read a report on it. The Faroese are in charge of their own affairs with regards to oil and gas. Exploration and drilling licences are granted by the Faroese Earth and Energy Directorate (Jarðfeingi), which has cooperated with the Norwegian Geological Survey and the Norwegian Petroleum Directorate, and the government oil revenues go unabridged to the Faroes. Two Faroese oil companies have also been established. If that is the case then it should be possible to find some official references to it. Perhaps a Shetlandic delegation was invited to attend, rather than Shetland being granted associate membership? Is this really so unknown? Wasn't it part of the BBC series Blood of the Vikings?

I have seen suggested that there was even some Sami emigration to at least Orkney. Are there any linguistic remnants of this? ***MOD EDIT - Removed excess quoting ***

To some degree, but not up to their necks. If the petroleum industry is developed, as is hoped, there will be no financial reliance at all. It could then be used to develop other competences for the post-petroleum era. Then associate membership of the Nordic Council would be a good place to start. I find both peoples fascinating, especially if we found some evidence of a pre-Indo-European language among the Picts.

Yes, it seems you want EFTA membership, which would require even more power transfer from Copenhagen.

I did some digging to learn more about this, and found the webpage linked to below. http://jol.ismennt.is/english/gryla-terry-gunnell.htm The Gryla is unfamiliar to me, but I obviously know the Jolebukk tradition, which I took part in as a child. We have the noun "gryl" and the verb "gryla" in Modern Norwegian. I suppose there could be a connection. It would be interesting to have the complete versions of these papers, and not just the abstracts. Let us know if you get hold of the paper. This was especially interesting: "These two points will be considered in the paper with regard to the Shetland material. I have come to the preliminary conclusion (1) that Norwegian connections with the isles after the Reformation were much stronger than is usually thought; (2) that the movement of the rhymes from continental post-Reformation Scandinavia to the isles has been underestimated; and (3) that the circulation of the rhymes between the isles had a peculiar character: the ‘rule’ ‘east – west’, for instance, has sometimes been broken."

Well, it doesn't quite mean "death" here either. It is mostly used with regards to the Ascension of Jesus Christ. With so much Old Norse in Scots, it easy to assume too much. Although "gang" could merely be a more conservative form, I suppose, as I assume that there was a longer form in English too at some point that has now been shortened to "go". Most Norwegians also say "gå" now instead of "ganga". I simply misunderstood "med". I'm not used to reading Shaetlan. I think you are correct. All it takes is a handful of very devoted individuals though.

That is a real shame. If you had been a part of Norway you would no doubt be getting the same treatment as Kven, and there are no doubt also people in Finland that would consider Kven to be just another dialect of Finnish. I assume you use "himmelsfaird" to mean "death"...? We have more or less the same word here with "himmelferd". That is a good point. Doesn't that sentence also show quite a few Norn remnants? The infinitive "to big" looks a lot like "å byggja" if you cut the second syllable. Even though I think you use "biggit" for "building" I think it has its parallel in "bygt" and "bygget" (bokmål), and I believe you can find "byggi" in some dialects. The infinitive "(to) gaeng" looks a lot like "å ganga", again with the syllable cut, and "ene" and certainy "med" also look Scandinavian/Norwegian. Thank you for the URL.

Why is that?

That makes sense, since sections of this Heimskringla saga can also be found in Orkneyinga saga. I suppose the name could refer to both the person who wrote down the collection, Gyles/Giles being a British surname, or perhaps even to Harald Gille. It would be very interesting to be able to read it.

No, you are correct, it is not the infinitive marker, but you still have a parallel to Norwegian. In Old Norwegian you had the demonstrative pronoun þat and the conjunction at. These were probably originally the same word and are still with us in Modern Norwegian as det (silent "t"), da in some conservative western dialects, and at. I do get your point about not needing to look further than Scots though. I believe that is the same across the Scandinavian languages. In Modern Norwegian you have "å lukka/lukke".

Yes, I believe so, but Norwegians were/are somewhat different.

No, I didn't mean South-East England. I meant south-east from the Liverpool area and into the Danelaw. This is just from memory though.

Well, if I remember my Sagas correctly there was a Norwegian/Celtic-Norse expansion that entered England in the Liverpool area and cut south-east. The meeting with their Danish "cousins" was supposedly far from friendly.