Davie P

So no Brexit candidate and Debra Nicolson is standing for the Greens.
 
I'm surprised The Brexit Party haven't fielded. I expect they'd have done quite well in Shetland.

Yes, I agree. first we need to stop foreigners at the national borders, then we can work on all the pesky soothmoothers who have come here stealing our jobs and sitting on their gold plated thrones making us eat fancy haggis etc etc
 
But what about the councillors that aren't thoroughbred Shetlanders? Have they been compromised with external genes too? Where will it end!
 

You can try to contextualise it as a bit of fun, or a 'contrived narrative' from the left if you want. Regardless, the President of the United States is encouraging and normalising xenophobia. You might be OK with that, but I think it's a divisive and reckless path to take. Perhaps a desire for folk to treat each other with respect makes me a leftist snowflake?

You can try to contextualise it as a bit of fun, or a 'contrived narrative' from the left if you want. Regardless, the President of the United States is encouraging and normalising xenophobia. You might be OK with that, but I think it's a divisive and reckless path to take. Perhaps a desire for folk to treat each other with respect makes me a leftist snowflake?

You can try to contextualise it as a bit of fun, or a 'contrived narrative' from the left if you want. Regardless, the President of the United States is encouraging and normalising xenophobia. You might be OK with that, but I think it's a divisive and reckless path to take. Perhaps a desire for folk to treat each other with respect makes me a leftist snowflake?

I think this counts as history since it's 46 years ago...
 
It's an article from a Pennsylvania newspaper from 1973 about the US Coastguard station at Scatsta. Click on the image to see a larger version.
 
http://i.imgur.com/vcqAqcYl.jpg

Yes.......and, your point is?

The Scottish Lairds were doing the same all over Scotland not just Shetland. If you're looking for the modern day equivalent you won't find them in Holyrood, they're more likely to be in the Palace of Westminster snoring away at our expense in the House of Lords or on the Tory benches in the House of Commons.I would like to think most people are intelligent enough to place their vote based on policies that affect their everyday lives not on Scottish tartan shortbread stereotypes, roadsigns or things that happened centuries ago. Policies like our bairns being able to Uni without them having to pay £9,000 a year tuition fees, free prescriptions, longer nursery hours, free care for the elderly or any of the many other things the Scottish Parliament has done to make myself and many other of my fellow Shetlanders lives better since devolution.

Maybe a bit of scaremongering there re: Gaelic roadsigns! It's local councils, not the government, let alone the SNP, that make the decision on bi-lingual signage, as is the case in Shetland with settlement name signage which includes dialect.

I find comments such as the above accusing Liberal Democrats as being "bunch of hypocrites destroying British democracy" to be undermining of democracy. The Liberals, whether you agree or disagree with their policies, have been consistent in their support for the EU and so are not hypocrites, and they are free to express their opinions, as are the Brexit Party.
 
But more importantly, the wider principles of democracy have been trivialised to the point that a pre-legislative referendum three years ago is being promoted by many as the 'true' or 'ultimate' form of democracy, and all other more established mechanisms of democratic governance must be subverted, and wider socio-economic circumstances, developments since the referendum, and new knowledge must be ignored. This is reckless and myopic logic.
 
We should certainly be holding our government to account to act in our best interests, but in doing so we should be aware that the referendum is but one factor in a complex series of decisions which must be made to arrive at the optimum outcome.
 
We need mature and non-partisan debate where all facts, developments, options and potential outcomes are presented. This is not a time for partly-political polarised posturing. If through such a process Brexit emerged as the optimum outcome, then so be it. However, I know of few well-considered lines of thought that would arrive at a no-deal Brexit as being a desirable conclusion.
 
The future of the UK in terms of Brexit will determined by one of two politicians who are engaged in a popularity contest where they must appease a small and unrepresentative demographic of the population in the form of conservative party members who favour a no-deal Brexit, so the ship of representative democracy may well have floundered.

There have been few periods in the past 40 years or so when global economic politics and conditions have been so unfavourable for international 'trade talks'
 
There has been a significant change toward nationalistic protectionist economic policies, of which the USA's 'trade tariffs' are symptomatic, in the past 18 months. This, and many other factors, are increasing the chances of a global economic downturn and possible recession. The early indicators of recession in the UK are already visible.
 
An economically weakened UK cut loose from the EU will not be in a favourable bargaining position.
 
Politicians who are advocating a no-deal Brexit and fail to address this material change in circumstances are, in my humble opinion, simply playing to the short-term populist gallery.

It's interesting to note that the Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond is estimating that the immediate impact of a no deal Brexit will cost us £90 billion - in effect wiping out the fiscal headroom built up through years of Tory austerity. I should imagine he'll have to austed from cabinet in the next Boris / Hunt reshuffle for pissing on the hardline Brexit chips with that prediction. 
 
It's good to see all the hardships the least wealthy members of society have endured recently will have been worth it 
 
But the disproportionately wealthy Tory membership who will be deciding on the new PM seem to be willing to accept that, so long as we 'take back control'
 
Hey ho, bring back the spirit of the blitz and all that.

It's interesting to note that the Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond is estimating that the immediate impact of a no deal Brexit will cost us £90 billion - in effect wiping out the fiscal headroom built up through years of Tory austerity. I should imagine he'll have to austed from cabinet in the next Boris / Hunt reshuffle for pissing on the hardline Brexit chips with that prediction. 
 
It's good to see all the hardships the least wealthy members of society have endured recently will have been worth it 
 
But the disproportionately wealthy Tory membership who will be deciding on the new PM seem to be willing to accept that, so long as we 'take back control'
 
Hey ho, bring back the spirit of the blitz and all that.

@Suffererof1crankymofo - I've just finished reading the same article!
 
re:  "it demonstrates that we are capable of passing legislation without the interference of the EU."
 
I quite agree. And I think the principles of gender equality are more universal that just what the EU committed to paper.
 
In this instance, I think the UK government haven't handled the situation at all well. They've known the equalisation of pension age has been coming for 40+ years but don't seem to have made many meaningful changes other than knock womens' pension age back with a big kick. A more graduated increase would likely have been a better solution

@ Davie P - yup, here's an article on it:-
 
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/06/16/what-part-did-the-eu-play-in-raising-womens-pensionable-age/
 
"Re: "things can go back to how they were" - if we leave the EU I sincerely hope we don't return to the gender equality attitudes of the 1970s!" - The Equal Pay Act 1970 came in prior to us joining the common market, albeit was updated with 2010 legislation.  If anything, it demonstrates that we are capable of passing legislation without the interference of the EU.

I think you’ll find it’s not Scotland alone, as the entire working classes of the UK have been exploited for centuries. Ask a Cornishman or aYorkshireman. Some of the exploiters have been Scottish, as have been many leading politicians.
Time to get over this inferiority complex about the English. Scottish independence should be based on a modern evaluation of our needs and as soon as we get a more grown-up attitude from some independence advocates, then I for one would be happy to vote for independence. Especially as it would mean remaining part of the European family.

You see George, that's the problem, could be solved - not would.
 
A lot of things could happen, but unfortunately most of them do not and the fishing is a case in point.  I am no expert on the EU fishing rules, but it is clear that the people who are, or should be, experts - the fishermen, despise the current situation and would do almost anything to see it changed. 
 
The problem is however the entire economic output of the UK fishing industry is tiny to the point that it is not significant in any material terms to the country as a whole - just over 1 tenth of 1 percent of the all UK economic output. <link will download a pdf for you to read>. It is of course hugely significant to fishing communities like Shetland the North East of Scotland, and Scotland as a whole, but as far as the people who are going to determine what happens post BREXIT are concerned it is as good as worthless.  That is why fishing rights to UK waters will almost certainly be bargained away and used as leverage in an attempt to gain more favorable outcomes in sectors of the economy which provide more economic value to the UK as a whole. The notion that voting for BREXIT, far less a no deal BREXIT will result in improved conditions in the UK fishing industry is far from certain and when you think about it objectively it appears incredibly unlikely.
 
Like Hilaire Belloc's boy named Jim, the fishing industry might well find instead of testing its fate in the jaws of the westminster lion it was better off keeping a hold of the EU nursemaid.

Or during the horse trading they were bought off one way or the other to 'toe the line'.
 
In a Europhile UK Parliament its hardly surprising that they get with whatever Brussels are selling this week, the problem arose, when they held a referendum which showed what the rest of us have suspected for a long time, that the UK population  is about as anti-EU as the UK Parliament is pro-EU. Consequently the argument that the UK Parliament's influence within the EU, and the UK Parliament's priority as far as the EU is concerned is the UK's population's influence and priorities is weak in the extreme.
 
Oh, the joys of holding votes on differing terms on the same subject relatively close together......add to the third vote involving the EU which we've just had returning roughly equal support for the Europhile parties, the anti-EU parties, and for two that seem to have no clue where they stand on the EU or anything else, and you have a right dog's dinner to wade through.

NFU presidents opinion on a no deal Brexit...
".. a no deal scenario would be catastrophic for British agriculture.."
Are there any crofters on here? It would be interesting to hear their view.

^My apologies, Davy. It appears that you are quite correct, it was a bit of a stitch-up. However, he did state, and I agree with him wholeheartedly, "“If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea." Personally, I would prefer it if every country ditched the European Union - end of problem.

Apologies for butting in Davie P, I hope you don't mind if I lend George a hand and make a start because lately I've been feeling a bit disillusioned by the various democratic processes. I mean how can anyone feel enthusiastic about a system that delivers the presidency of the United States to someone who is as abjectly unsuitable as Donald Trump? I struggle with a system that has brought us to the brink of dismantling the very philosophy which has maintained prosperity and peace throughout Europe for the past 70 years and, in Australia where I live, I despair when I find multiple unashamed neo nazi parties on my voting card which only has one last place.
 
What can be done about it? Firstly abolish the first past the post voting system, it is manifestly undemocratic and forsakes half, or more, of the voters. Replace it with a representative voting system. Secondly introduce laws to hold politicians to account. If they mislead or misrepresent the truth - imprison them.  Companies are not allowed to misrepresent their products and if an individual lies and causes someone to suffer a loss they can take civil action and hold the liar to account. Why should politicians be allowed to arbitrarily lie and cause enormous loss to every single citizen in the country and then retire in comfort to a country mansion or lucrative speaking circuit position without any accountability whatsoever? Thirdly, maybe introduce compulsory voting, although I'm not entirely sold on the idea. I generally tend to be of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that the population are generally decent sensible people and if everyone votes you should get decent sensible representation. The theory being with optional voting and low voter turnout the lunatic fringe are more easily rallied and so are more likely to vote than the average person, therefore you get more lunatic fringe representation.
   
The root of the problem, as I see it, is that reality no longer matters, the truth is no longer valued by politicians, and the malady is fast spreading to the population at large. Mark Twain noted how a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth gets its boots on, and he never saw facebook or twitter.  Our democratic system needs to adapt to deal with the world where misinformation is so easily published by liars and spread by the ignorant.  

Why the UK cannot see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid
 
Spot on....
 

This thread has come along way on this forum but it has indeed deviated well from the original issue posted and the original question asked!
 
So could it be the time as hakama suggests for something along the lines of Monty Python, at least that would provide some kind of comedy approach to something really serious i.e. not the Holy Grail, only our holey window?   

Can we get some one to make a film about this double glazing unit. along the lines of Monty Python.