Windwalker

16 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Jeezo. You've made no attempt to understand the position offered ("it's a strap line") and I didn't dismiss your LSE trade concern ("It should worry anyone") as it is, indeed, a real worry.

You repeatedly invite folk to convince you of something you're clearly against under the guise of being worried, ignore actual positives and resort to name calling along the way. Your more than guilty of that which you accuse others.

We are clearly at opposite ends on this and I agree I’m completely against independence in this manner, where the country has already made a decision some short years ago and were in the middle of a pandemic. My position was that I wanted to see if I was missing something. Unfortunately there is little that has convinced me that we’re not better of in the union.
 

You will be surprised to learn that I’m not completely against independence. Personally what I’d like to see is the Scottish government convincing me they can improve our lot, devolved issues like education improve rather than decline, then let’s seek more devolved areas and bit by bit get to a stage where it makes sense to our population to take that final step, where the evidence is clear that it makes good sense for the country. I’m sorry if you disagree with me but I can’t see the evidence at this point in time. It just too big a risk in my opinion.

Clearly my joke offended you, that was not it’s intention so I’m happy to apologise, I thought the winky emoji would confirm that it was a joke.

Where we stand at present I’m not convinced that Sturgeon will get another vote in the near future and even if she does, I hope that with the obvious lack of clear information she doesn’t win. As a back up plan in case she wins, I hope Shetland has the sense to become a crown dependency. I’ll likely be 6 feet under by that time.

However if we were to take peerie steps meantime. I might jump on board.

Lets agree to disagree.

1 hour ago, Roachmill said:

Erm... by being in charge of our own affairs? I know you want to dismiss that but I'll add more to that for you to dismiss below.

It should worry anyone and I doubt you'll be any less worried by anything suggested to mitigate this [based solely on trade figures alone] study. For example, being able to set taxation and altering course on the Tory mantra of lowering taxes for the people paying them to do just that. Before you come with the "but it'll scare away investment and big business" I'll throw out this from the LSE: Keeping tax low for the rich does not boost economy.

There's pensions too which are supposed to increase under an independent Scotland and not be transformed into a welfare payment as the Tories are repeatedly try to do. Remember the shameful act of No campaigners going door-to-door last time telling pensioners they'd lose their contributions if Yes won?

Perhaps the "staunch SNP voters" are all too busy waving their flags (or eating bananas) whilst you're here being "worried" but dismissing any benefits offered. If, as you keep demanding to be provided with, you're looking for cast iron certainties that an independent Scotland of the future will enrich you, you're onto plums as a working crystal ball has yet to be invented. However, if you're just coming here under said guise of being all "worried" to just push for No (you did the same before IIRC) then... *walks off mumbling naughty words*

Roachmill, you continue to try and belittle me, which seems to be the tactics of SNP supporters, if we don’t have the answers we will try to make the non believers look bad. I’m sorry if you find my attempts to understand your position annoying and you dismiss that fact I’m worried for potential outcomes for our country.  I certainly am not looking for cast iron guarantees but agree my concerns are that we end up considerably worse off. The problem seems to be that the SNP and many of its supporters blatantly dismiss everything which doesn’t meet their agenda and can’t really come anywhere near giving any evidence of how Scotland will be better off.

You suggest being in charge as our own affairs as an answer, but want to hand these powers back to the EU. They will eventually control our currency, borrowing etc. The same as they do with the likes of Greece.
 

I’ll agree to disagree with you.
 

22 minutes ago, George. said:

It woul certainly be interesting to see justification for the statement telling us that I hate everything English.

George with all due respect, your posts do that for you. It certainly comes across as that. 
I could pick up on your spelling George, but let’s just blame Westminster;-)

23 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Well, it's kind of the fundamental (let's take the "yeah, it's mental alright!" joke as read) point of becoming an independent country and would have the largest impact on the future of Scotland. It's also something the SNP BAD!!! folk choose to completely ignore as it mean an end their only focus - hating on the SNP.

The political landscape of an independent Scotland is something non-experts can talk about with some actual insite. The alternative is to indulge in talking out of one's rear - or armchairing it - about topics without sufficient knowledge... or just bashing everything that doesn't fit with a predetermined view. Not going there!

The problem is, is there is insufficient knowledge of possible outcomes, no doubt from Sturgeon down, but we are still being told by the SNP that Scotland would be stronger on its own ! How?  
 

Today, according to the London school of economics they say the costs of independence would be 2-3 times higher than for Brexit. Academics from the LSE have concluded that independence would hit the Scottish economy harder than Brexit and re-joining the EU would make little difference. It suggests that independence would cause an equivalent loss of £2,000 - £2800 per person in Scotland. This worries me. 
 

I was hoping that the staunch SNP voters on here could convince me of the benefits of independence. If they all feel independence is going to improve our lot, could they share the information which has lead to that decision. If not why are they not happy to admit that they want out of the union regardless of outcome and cost to our country.

1 hour ago, George. said:

The Conservative and Unionist Party insist that they're our friends. The Labour Party insist exactly the same, as do the Lib Dems, with their wee Alistair Carmichael (The man that promised that he was going to leave politics). All pandering to Westminster, where the English live very close to.

Never forget just who inflicted the E.E.C. upon us, never forget who inflicted the Common Market upon us and never forget who inflicted the European Union (A new name for all the rest.) upon us.

Very democratic.

George your constant hate of everything English is certainly consistent and in previous posts you go back 300 years to blame James VI for creating the union. But what you forget to mention is the act of the union bailed out an otherwise bankrupted Scotland following its disastrous attempt to build its own trading empire, you don’t mention that more Scots fought with Cumberland at Culloden than against him. You don’t mention how the union helped end centuries of wars between our nations.

Scotland has done quite well out of the union in the last 300 years. Today Scots benefit from public spending that is around 10% higher then the U.K. average. If a bit of pandering to Westminster gets that result, I’m all for it.

19 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

Ahem, as previously suggested, an independent Scotland would gain political freedom including an end to just voting SNP to try and get to that very point. You glazed over that fairly monumental milestone and appear to have a thing about expecting people to lay out other benefits / problems; all the while comparing SNP folk to chimps in suits. Can you understand why, perhaps, nobody is rushing to their keyboards? Please don't make the mistake of taking the lack of uptake on your requests as justification for independence being a terrible idea.... nor that those looking for it are walking towards it blindly.

I see the statement of gaining political freedom as nothing other than a strap line. It doesn’t answer the questions about the effects of our such so called political freedom. Then when you get it, you want to give it away to the EU. How about discussing issues such as the effect on currency,  budget deficits, what happens if the EU refuse re-entry and if they do what might the terms be. Hard or soft border with England and the consequences. The issues with the carving up of U.K. assets and more importantly dept etc. What will happen to Scotland funding if Shetland decides to become a crown dependency taking its oil and fishing waters with it.

the reasons you/they don’t rush to their keyboards is not because I made a joke it’s because you/they would rather have a dig as deal with the concerns of those who can’t understand why so many SNP voters are happy to push ahead without answers to important questions. 
 

there’s nothing you’ve added that convinces me that some folk are determined to split the union regardless of the outcome for our country and without knowing the consequences. In other words ‘walking towards it blindly’

 @JGHR, just another point. You say Greigs is already bailing out of Shetland, the suggestion being due to Brexit. Perhaps you should read Greigs own statement where they clearly say that all their Scottish sites are failing to make money, due to high morality and problems with jellyfish, COVID etc. Hence like any company with investors they have to make changes. No where do they mention or blame Brexit.

Tavish Scott however has said that he believes the operation will be bought out and continue in some form, let’s hope so for the sake of all its employees.

8 hours ago, JGHR said:

 

The Brexit referendum was absolutely undemocratic that is beyond question. The first past the post voting system can only be described as democratic because the population vote regularly.  Claiming that a vote which forsakes almost half of the population in perpetuity is somehow aligned with democratic principles is absurd.

Glad!  Why are you glad? Do you understand the consequences for Shetland? Are you glad that Shetlands sheep farmers, fisherman and now mussel farmers have been sold down the river and many are going to find themselves in serious trouble.  What do you think it will mean for Shetlands economy if sheep farming and mussel farming is no longer viable? What if the Salmon farming industry becomes non viable, Grieg is already bailing out of Shetland and Scotland because they can't make money here, what if the rest shut up shop, would you be glad about that too?

Here's a Shetland specific advantage of an independent Scotland for you and its the only one you should need:

The SNP have promised to rejoin the EU. 

Edit - reply to windwalker a couple of pages back, I somehow ballsed up the quote insertion.

Admin edit - we fixed the quote for you (assuming you meant to quote the quote we quoted for you!)

First past the post may not suit your agenda, but it’s what the country runs by at this time. Let’s see if you question it if the SNP wins the next Scottish elections.

The reason I’m now glad to be out of the EU is because my eyes have been opened and I’ve seen their true colours. They constantly tell us they are our friends yet have used every trick in the book to try and screw us over. They are an undemocratic slow moving, bureaucratic money wasting entity. Just this week we see them trying to justify that the U.K., who were quick of the mark, should hand over our jabs to them to the extent they were prepared to create a border in Ireland. Unbelievable action that has shown to create a dangerous situation resulting in EU border staff having to be removed for their own safety. They then realised their mistake and reversed the decision, accepted they had been slow off the mark, then within days changed their tune and said it wasn’t they were slow it was the U.K. who were too fast. You can’t make this stuff up. They use Ireland to fight their cause then screwed them over. They didn’t even have the decency to inform them they were about to close their border. It’s clear they will do what they can to ensure the U.K. fails because they know other countries will come to realise they would be better out than in. I could go on. I’m also glad that we are so far ahead with COVID jabs, that many of our friends, family and loved ones lives might be saved. 

I fully realise the consequences of the effects on our local businesses and believe in the main these will be short term, we are already seeing issues, blockages etc being resolved and the government offering financial support. Today alone the SNP announced 7.5 million for our fisheries. Such a major change will have a number of negativities, but I look to the future and believe the opportunities and markets opening up for our locals suppliers will eventually benefit them far greater than the EU.

At last someone offers a specific advantage of an independent Scotland and you say that will be Scotland re-joining the EU. A bold statement. How about putting some meat on the bones and explain all the positives, whilst doing that will you be willing to clearly explain the negatives and risks to our country or will you continue the same game of avoiding the things the SNP will try to hide.

when I get a bit more time I’ll happily lay out the major concerns I have.

Perhaps we should also stop all foreign vessels fishing for these same shellfish, after all if our catch isn’t good enough to ship to the EU we shouldn’t allow them to catch them in our waters to take to the EU. 

2 hours ago, Capeesh said:

If this is the case, why don't they train some chimps, put them in suits

They did and they called them the SNP

30 minutes ago, Davie P said:

This is a key point. A democracy goes beyond just votes. It requires the voting population to have access to accurate information and an understanding of what it is they are voting for. In my humble opinion, neither box was ticked for the Brexit referendum. It was a reasonable gauge of public opinion at that point in time perhaps.

However, I feel the discourse and subsequent election was influenced by the misinformation which came after the referendum along the lines that anyone who questioned Brexit, preached caution or spoke in opposition to the 'will of the people' was fundamentally undemocratic. In some instances Brexit supporters might as well have been chanting 'stop the steal'. This undoubtedly influenced the election which eventually pushed Brexit over the finish line.

So it was democratic in principle, but a debased version! Let's hope we learn from it.

Completely agree. I can’t think of any vote I’ve made recently where I felt either side was providing sufficient information for myself to make a “well” educated decision. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut.

45 minutes ago, Roachmill said:

I don't follow. You pulled Evil Inky up for not being able to accept democracy when, IMO, all he did was highlight a sadly ironic turn of events. One whereby we leave the EU market on our doorstep and then make a thing about applying to join a trade partnership we're already technically part of halfway around the world. One which yields a total turnover similar to what the UK saw from trade with just Germany alone. Does that not sound like a bit of a bad idea (the details are in the article he linked)? That's how his post came across to me anyway.

I've not caught the bit where anyone said the Brexit vote wasn't done democratically. People voted and the result is well known. What got that result and how it was achieved is widely documented, however. I find it hard not to acknowledge that, although it was a democratic process, there was no end of manipulation carried out at the highest levels (e.g. big data being used to manipulate us plebs and the same old monumental smear campaigns trotted out against political parties). To ignore that is only begging for the same to happen again and again.

Whilst I’ve already explained in a few posts above my comment on democracy, I’ll try and clarify it again. If you go through a number of posts on here they state the outcome of either Brexit or independence was not democratic, whilst offering no supporting evidence to clarify or justify their views. In my opinion they just can’t accept democracy. 

my comments were not aimed directly at Evil Inky but in general and we’re giving with the same level of sarcasm he offered me.  As I’ve already confirmed in a post above, I have no issue with him or anyone else having different views and making them known. That after all is democracy. 
 

46 minutes ago, Davie P said:

I'll take the bait on this  

The fundamental problem with the referendum was that it was an indicative vote, not a legally binding vote. The legislation was clear on that. If the Tories had wished for a legally binding vote they would have likely had to have sought parliamentary agreement on a more robust legislative mechanism such as a 2/3 'supermajority' rather than a simple majority.

The Tories then tried to bypass parliament claiming that the referendum was in fact legally binding when it demonstrably wasn't, and the High Court had to intervene to force the decision back to parliament.

Bun-fights were then had and years were wasted, but then the Tories won the election on a Brexit ticket and Brexit went ahead due to their majority in parliament.

It was the same result in the end and was achieved through democratic means, but the fact remains that the Tories tried to illegally bypass our democratic processes the first time around.

--------

I should imagine the whole referendum legislation thing will end up as a footnote in history, but with a Scottish Independence Referendum on the horizon we'd do well to learn the lessons on how not to do things.

I agree that the tories attempts to bypass parliament was unacceptable. This was quite rightly dealt with by the high court. The final decision on the outcome was democratic. My general concern about democracy is to do with both Brexit and Scottish independence and continued unjustified quotes that they were undemocratic made on these pages. If folk want to make these statements, they should at least back them up.

For the record I have no more love for the Tories than I do for the SNP.

1 hour ago, Roachmill said:

So we all just have to get with the Brexit plan and any attempt to highlight a demonstrably bad idea is being anti democratic? Yikes!

Not at all roachmill everyone is entitled to their views and to question the government. God help us when folk don’t.

My issue with not accepting democracy was aimed at those who keep saying it was not done democratically, whilst at the same time unwilling to provide any proof of that.  You go ahead and and stick to your views. Fill your boots.

1 hour ago, ReeseTheDundonian said:

So let's imagine a world in which the UK dissolves and breaks off into several different states. Shetland has a choice between being part of Scotland, part of Norway or being as it's own sovereign state. Would you vote yes for independence? If so, why?

Hi Reece, I would think an independent Scotland would be disastrous and re-joining the EU hardly makes it independent.

I don’t know enough about how becoming part of Norway would affect us and I don’t think we could make it as a sovereign state.

My vote would go to becoming a crown dependency, could this be added to the vote?

31 minutes ago, Evil Inky said:

To be honest, I was very surprised that someone still thinks spending billions of pounds on Brexit, with the result that there is now a customs border down the Irish Sea and mountains of new red tape, was a good idea. Hence my somewhat sarcastic reply.

To be honest I’m surprised that some folk still cannot accept democracy.

24 minutes ago, Windwalker said:

So really what your saying is that you don’t care what the outcome or effects on the country might be as long as you feel you’ve gone one up on England for something that happened in the 1600s. Wow you can hold a grudge for some time George.

Mind you George, it’s a pleasant change to see you showing a similar dislike to a Scot and a Scottish king at that. 

32 minutes ago, George. said:

There is no way that I could deny hating Westminster, Windwalker, I do and to the root.

James VI got it very, very wrong

So really what your saying is that you don’t care what the outcome or effects on the country might be as long as you feel you’ve gone one up on England for something that happened in the 1600s. Wow you can hold a grudge for some time George.

27 minutes ago, George. said:

I wonder just how democratical it was for Westminster to inflict the E.E.C. upon us C.1961? Ted Heath and what he did to us in 1972? Boris, regardless of whether we want anything to do with the Trans-Pacific Partnership - but that's what some of us call democracy.

Wonder just how much of our fishing water will be given away by Westminster, while a large amount tell us that it's democratical, Westminster to the root.

Vote S.N.P.

Vote SNP ! WHY. George I gave you every opportunity a couple of nights ago to give me some good reasons why we should vote for independence, yet your only and consistent reply is because you clearly hate Westminster. Nothing about how we will benefit as a country and nothing about the negative effects of independence. You clearly want us to close our eyes, cover our ears, vote SNP and hope for the best.

Westminster isn’t giving away our fishing waters, they are taking it back. The SNP on the other hand intends to put it back under EU control, who will give more of it away to foreign vessels, just as they are doing to Irish waters. Open your eyes.

27 minutes ago, Evil Inky said:

Have you told all those fisherman this? I think they'd be very relieved to know they can continue exporting fish as they did before we left the EU.

To begin with I answered your sweeping statement regarding the CPPTP and trade in general, you obviously couldn’t argue  the reply, so you resort to changing the question to specifics, but let me answer your question, no I haven’t told the fishermen this, I didn’t realise it was my place to do it. We have had a dramatic change to our usual ways of trading with the EU and yes this has had a knock on effect to some exporters, particularly our fishing industry. These are teething issues for which the government has offered compensation and these teething issues will in time settle down again. That is already being seen.

The gain will for our fishermen and fish exporters will be the opening up of new markets and eventually larger quotas.

I agree the government should have been dealt with a lot better, after all they had years to work towards it.

11 hours ago, George. said:

As I understand it, the mast on Collafirth is run by EE and it's the only mast around - but I get a vodafone signal. May well be worth considering.

Thanks George

5 minutes ago, George. said:

It suggests just how democratic Westminster really is. To start with, they inflicted the E.U. upon us, in a completely and utterly undemocratical manner. Now it appears that they are going to inflict membership of the Trans-Pacific Partnership upon us, regardless of whether we want it or not.

It certainly shows just how democratical Westminster REALLY is.

Really !

52 minutes ago, Evil Inky said:

You're not claiming that the increase in trade due to joining the CPPTP will make up for the loss in trade due to leaving the EU are you?

Loss!  The deal with the EU allows us to continue trading with the EU, in addition it opens up loads of new markets, operating without having to pay millions in each week and some unelected body deciding our laws and regulation. It’s a win win.

5 minutes ago, BigMouth said:

We will have to wait and see.  My opinion is that the EU wants to grow.  They have already said something to the effect of "be careful that the door doesn't hit you in the *yrse on the way out".  If they wanted to give Johnson a kick they could make Scotland's joining easier.

You could well be right, there are just too many uncertainties for me and no doubt plenty of others to make an educated judgement regarding independence. If I thought for one minute Scotland and more importantly to me Shetland would be better off I would vote for it, but nothing has come close to me seeing it as an option so far.

Now the other discussion is Shetland independence/crown dependency, but dats a discussion for another time. Thus ald ein needs der sleep. Thanks for da input, it’s been a while since I’m been on here.