Nigel Bridgman-Elliot

I'm not really keen on wooden structures because of the fire hazard point of view as the main reason. I've seen/heard of quite a few cases of building collaspings from using the plastic fibre approach, from what I have heard only really being useful if the concrete remains in compression, eg. ok for foundation floor type slabs, but nothing else which might get stretched, and also rotting issues too. (Even floor slabs would get stretched during an earthquake so thats really out too!) As such I'd rather shy away from something which doesn't have a long track record, and especially if i come across some bad examples of it failing. (I've yet to find failures when it comes to waterproof concrete/additives, but I'm still looking..) Hence the idea of having the outershell without reinforcement to avoid that being the cause of failure, and having the internal blocks replacable but with reinforcement on the basis that some will fail and that ease of maintence is paramount. I tend to believe experience and practice over theory, so I get to hear about many great products, yet when I talk to the people who end up with the final result, the end product is often very poor indeed.

You'd think with all the technology out there that todays clocks and things with clocks could cope with this little issue. My mobile phone for example has a setting for this, only it doesn't work.. I still wonder why we keep this time changing thing nowdays..

Whilst we are at the subject of the Earth, is gravity now more than it used to be, as I'm sure I once read someplace the idea that at the time of the dinosaurs that gravity was less, and more massive animals could be more easily supported, this was due apparently do the Earth slowing down its spinning. So I've always wondered, how much does the Earth spinning effect our gravity ? Also, I'm curious how the tides work, something to do with the moon pulling the water away from the Earth.. I can go with that, but isn't their pulling on the oppersite side of the Earth where there isn't a moon to do the job ? I also wonder, that some of the energy from nothing devices we hear about might be leaching energy from the Earths big dynamo.

But I thought the earth as it cooled was shrinking ?

It would be interesting to see what price titanium reinforcing rods are, but so far all of the rod types I've looked at have had issues, stainless steel ones rust even faster than ordinary steel would you believe it! fibreglass ones rot, rubber coated steel might work as long as you never get them damaged, which isn't really realistic. There is another material for reinforcement suggested a while back, but its name escapes me for now, I'll have a look up about it later. But going by how the Romans did their concrete and how well it lasted, its perhaps best to stick with something we know works I'll have a greater look at the buckytile idea paulb, but geodesic domes with many joints suffer terribly from leaking, where as a single pour monolithic structure tends not to. It would be nice not to reinvent the wheel.

Yes, I'm looking at having something like french windows/patio doors, so the window is the door as well. It might well be that the bedroom has to have 2 windows/doors at the very least. I'd also like to add a sprinkler system too, though not one that goes off every time you make toast

A thank you to the mod for rearranging things, I just posted this in the wrong spot and have reposted it here. (Though I see I'll have to take care to use that dredded quoting system to keep everyone happy next time..) Its hard to quickly find a video showing a prefabricated concrete dome house going up But as my design is half and half, it was meant to show that prefabs can be pretty quick to build, and don't take the usual 18 months we seem to see British builders take when it comes to putting up a house.. Video of concrete dome shell: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NNaLvbdp7f0 Video of a not very good technique/design (Several fell down.. I imagine due to the rebar not being in the right place.) http://www.videosift.com/video.....Dome-Built And a poor quality video, but it does show a bit of concrete spraying. (I'm trying to look at designing it so the concrete is poured, rather than sprayed to avoid the need for spraying/pumping equipment, at least for the first one we build, though it could mean many hours mixing and pouring concrete for the outer shell..) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_jtzU0k_U > also do you not know how bad concrete and steel are at conducting heat Yes, this is why the outer layer will have lots of insulation mixed in with the concrete, and being underground too will help with insulation as you wont have the wind whistling over your roof trying to suck all that heat away. The inner layer of concrete panels is also to create a large thermal mass, so you won't see the tempreature suddenly change and any outside varient of temp will take a while to work itself through to you. > you looked into using SIP'S panels probably cheaper and more > thermo efficient I have yes, cheaper and more efficient yes, but: When (not if..) they get wet they rot, fall apart over time, insulation gets eaten by rodents, and tend to burn to a crisp when you get a fire, and aren't very strong when it comes to sticking a building underground. Concrete on the other hand, highly fire resistant, not many things can eat it, and can last for thousands of years. (AKA Pantheon) And is good for sound insulation (A common problem between neighbours is sound pollution.), plus handy at stopping people breaking into your home by going through your wall. Insulation is less of an issue if you can provide low cost heating, but things like haivng a building that can last a lifetime and doesn't need tearing down after a couple of decades can be a good way to reduce future building costs in a community. Wooden homes and fire, just a big no no. Same with plumbing leaks and wood, especially that chipboard like stuff that turns to mush when it gets wet. (I know your supposed to get waterproof wooden stuff nowdays, but reports from various people show in practice its not that reliable to stay that way.) So whilst it may not have as high an insulating level as other what one would want ideally, the difference is probably not going to be worth worrying about at the end of the day as long as their is a sizable amount there. (Some research indicates that very little insulation might not actually be a problem with an underground home, this I'm still looking into.) > meet all the modern buliding regs which are quite strict Indeed, I make sure it ticks all the boxes it should, I'd be looking for some professionals to help me out in that area once I've done what I can myself. > you were talking about covering these houses in grass i take it > you would use sun tubes to get sunlight into the houses or are > you wanting to use artaficial light Yes, grass. I'd want to avoid anything that punctures the outer waterproof shell, its just so hard to make something waterproof so any joints are bad. I might use something like suntubes, but probably for the rooms at the back, simple artifical lights will be fine, for the rooms at the front, much like the Cumbria example, have a big window to let in light to the majority of rooms you use the most. (You can get flourescent tubes for example with daylight colour, not just the stark bright light ones you get from the local DIY store. I've been using some like that here for 9 years, as I never open my curtains anyhow.) Plus with something like only a single window, it wouldn't be hard to imagine having a concrete shutter so you can button up if need be, or at least be sure when you've been out and come back, no ones burglurized you. (Less of an issue in the Shetlands, but still, it makes sense for a design which could be built elsewhere to think security, as so many homes today are just too easy to break into.) > just looks a bit industrial True, it may not be to everyones taste, and maybe later on I might look to adding access paneling on top to pretty it up. But well designed conduit can blend into a room if some thought is given to its style, eg. an example of heating pipes: http://www.discreteheat.co.uk Additional panelling might be needed for example to deal with the acoustics which so often are a problem with concrete buildings and domes in particular. But once you fill the place with furniture, you probably won't notice it so much There are lots of issues with hiding these things in walls, leaks for example can be hard to notice, and when replacing/upgrading its not uncommon to have to rip apart walls. Plus you really don't want to effect the strength of your structure by digging out trenches to put your cables in. I've spent somewhat of a lifetime seeing and hearing about bad designs, so I'm keen to try and avoid all the pitfalls I can, and design out issues which effect many of todays buildings. (Eg. concrete drainage channels underneath plumbing water/waste pipes for when they leak.) Like running your conduit rather than around the walls, go straight down to the basement area and run it around there out of sight, so you might see very little of it anyhow. (The last house I had I just ran it over the walls, but I have learn't to try and hide it a little better over the years since my new girlfriend likes things to be pretty ) > domes are relatively unproven in the shetland climate, hopefully > nigel will come to shetland, build one of his domes and prove us > all wrong One of the main issues with underground homes (And also other homes too..) is damp, no one really makes an effort to install dehumidifers/AC/etc. to keep them dry and suck out all that moisture. (My current place was a bit mouldy before I let the AC do its thing and now all the mould is dorment/dead.) Hopefully I will learn a lot living in the first one we build and it won't take too long to evolve the design to be the best it can be. I try and look at all the mistakes everyone else is making building wise and try not to repeat them.

Or Tubbytronic Superdomes if you must When I have more detailed plans and costings I'll get back to you, and made a note to consider taking up your most generous offer of a bit of land. If anyones got thoughts on design considerations, errors, etc. by all means speak up

I will do, whilst some councils do not like such approaches, others do: http://www.theundergroundhouse.org.uk Is in Cumbria, and whilst being somewhat on the small side, does show that such things can be built in the UK. (If only land was cheap there and crime not so high..) > They just wouldn't work imho I'd be most interested to hear why you think they wouldn't work.

Not Gentec Venturi houses, but concrete domes, such as: http://static.monolithic.com Which has a wealth of information, such as: http://static.monolithic.com/gallery/commercial/rentals/index.html > "Monolithic Domes have already proven their value as rentals," > David says. "There are several residence inn domes right here in > Italy, Texas that are consistently occupied. These small domes work > very well for one or two people. They attract working singles, > newlyweds, retirees, as well as single parents with just one child. > Renters like the security they provide, their minimal maintenance > and low energy use. My design is based on an internal skin of prefabricated steel reinforced concrete blocks slotted/bolted together in a similar shape/style to what you might find when looking at a football. The reason for the blocks is so they can be replaced in the future from the inside when the rebar fails (concrete cancer/spalling/etc.). Also the blocks can be fited in a finished state, with built in bolt attachment areas so you can hang your services/furniture/etc. on without having to drill into the surface and leave the place like a pin cushion after 100 years.. (I'm keen to keep services such as electric cables and plumbing surface mounted, rather than buried in the walls for ease of maintence.) Cover that with a monolithic layer of waterproof concrete which includes insulation in the form of something like perlite mixed in, but without rebar so there is less risk of it failing in the future. (As is so common with modern steel reinforced concrete buildings..) I don't have any fancy graphs at the moment, but I'll stick it on my todo list. As I definitely want to build my own home, it doesn't matter how long that takes me, and if I'm a bit out on my sums, that doesn't really matter either whether it takes 15 years or 30 years to build some 15,000 homes, I'll build them as quickly as I can afford to do so, but offhand some back of the envelope calculations give me a rough estimate of around 20 years, which seems good enough to go by for now. I am slowly working on drawings, videos, etc. so that one day I'll have something pretty and PR friendly to show everyone, for now there is just the very beginnings of that which I've began to put together. (Money is the big changer here, once you have that, any dreams you have can quickly become reality.) http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vzOWN9TBY34 And if you want to look at others efforts to produce earth sheltered housing, here is one: http://uk.youtube.com/user/daviscaves1

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/hotgreen.htm > Scientists have discovered what they think may be another reason > why Greenland 's ice is melting: a thin spot in Earth's crust is enabling > underground magma to heat the ice. > > “Crustal heat flow is still one of the unknowns -- and it's a fairly > significant one, according to our preliminary results.†It can be hard to figure out just whats causing what, as we still know rather a little about how our planet works. But I would agree, being cautious would be a sensible stratagy to take. > I know i will get shot down for saying this, but mans uncontrolled > mass polluting of the planet is at this time more of a concern than > Global warming.IMHO. Agreed, this is perhaps what concerns me the most, and it goes almost hand in hand with Global Warming, eg. reduce one, you reduce the other too. But sadly there is no great, lets stop polluting our backyard campaign going on, so one may as well hijack some other bandwagon and do what you can to influence some sensible decisions to reduce pollution. > This is a cycle which operates over millions of years, snapping a > miniscule part of the earths 4.5 Billion year development and presenting > it as evidence is the most fundimentally flawed aspect of almost all > global warming theorys. Agreed, listen to one lot of scientists and they tell you we are about to have an iceage, listen to another lot and they think the oppersite! Its still unclear whose right and whose wrong and why. But, as I said before, we can be cautious just in case, instead of building a new coal power station, perhaps build a nuclear one instead. Though, even that thinking might be wrong.. http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/carbon-dioxide-scrubber-captures-greenhouse-gases-17473.html > This means that if you used electricity from a coal-fired power plant, > for every unit of electricity you used to operate the capture machine, > you'd be capturing 10 times as much CO2 as the power plant emitted > making that much electricity," Thats why it can be so hard to figure out what is the right course of action to take at any one time, do we do this, or that.. Stop dumping our rubbish in the sea, thats probably a good start, stop filling the air with harmful chemicals, thats probably a good idea too, stop burying hazardious waste in the ground, that too. But, thats difficult as we rely on all of those for our livestyles, so we need to change, a little less pollution as we alter our industires to be cleaner.

> what software you use? Ameol, latest version can be picked up here: http://www.brothersoft.com/ameol-5139.html Though I might recommend a slightly earlier less buggy version myself..

> trying to preach to the rest of us that your way is much better than > ours, and that we should change! Well, if your happy with the way houses are currently built, the high price of rents, the lack of rented property, and the 900 odd people on the housing waiting list, and the poor designs which use lots of ever increasing expensive fuel to keep warm... But I'm all ears, what do you want changed, improved/etc. ? > managed to be more humble Its a peculiar British response I find, say the same thing to an American and they accuse you of not being assertive enough, but say practically anything about yourself in a positive light in the UK, and your branded a show off/etc. Here we dislike success, or any attempt to even come close to it. Maybe its because we don't like rich people, I'm not really sure, though I can understand if that is the case, as many rich friends I know, are not really nice people, and we woudn't want not nice people as our neighbours.. < there is absolutely no way that you can build two houses in a day Thats because they are not all built, 2 every day, let me explain: Lets say it takes 1 man, 100 days to build one house. 2 men might take 75 days lets say, and 3 take 50 days. 100 days = 1 house using 1 man 200 days = 2 houses, because your 1st man now lives in the 1st house. +75 days = 3 houses, because your 2nd man now lives in the 2nd house. +50 days = 4 houses, because your 3rd man now lives in the 3rd house. As you get more houses built, you can house more workers and it takes less time to build another house, or group of houses. So at the very beginning your building very slowly, but towards the end your knocking them out pretty fast. Though if the house was a pre-fab, you could do it one per day.. http://sugoijapan.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-to-build-house-in-day.html > I can just see an Island of windmills and hobbit homes FX [ smiles ] Though I'm more of a geothermal man myself, I'm less keen on windmills cluttering the landscape (You could put them underground at the top of hills though, like a Persian windmill..) and more prefer something that works 24/7 and not just when its windy Or acres of solar panels maybe.. There are quite a few different designs for wind turbines out there; http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/new_australian.php http://www.nextenergynews.com/news08/next-energy-news6.6.08c.html http://www.thelovegreenschool.co.uk/cms/index.asp http://www.jovanovic.f2s.com/page2.html

> The idea may be a good one but if the credibility of the person > saying it is in doubt So we only take notice of ideas from respected people ? Whilst I can understand that what some people say is relevant to who they are, often ideas and solutions can come from anyone, and it shouldn't really be important who at times. (Though I think its necessary to give credit where credit is due.) > I'm assuming you read a lot of the posts on this thread and a lot of > the natives do not like people coming in with radical ideas on how > to change the island I have, and is why I'm engaging to find out what ideas would be welcomed and which would not. (It might not for example be myself that impliments them, someone else might take the ball and run with it.) > you are at times off hand and dismissive of responses you get I can only try harder, and it is helpful when people tell me so, so I'm aware of it and can try and change a little. Communication is very much the key, we all need to talk with each other more. > The I.Q remark did smack of someone who didn't want to come > up with an answer I always try and answer every point if possible, and not one to shy away from anything. I know it might seem like that mentioning ye olde IQ, but I was responding to a post where someone thought I did little more than just chat online all day, rather than go into an endless long list of what I can do, I thought to shorten it to something simple which whilst it might annoy some British folk who are not keen on smart people, it puts the message across that I could be another Alan Sugar or Richard Branson and I'm not here to waste my time, but to be productive in my efforts to action change for people in my own country, not just myself. > I can do without the arrogance Sometimes, its just not possible to be less so. I know many great people who have what some discribe as arrogance, they might not make ideal neighbours, but they get the job done. (So just make sure I'm safely tucked away in my bunker someplace far from you and we'll get on fine.) Its one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in right now, everyones too afraid not to upset someone else by speaking their mind, or telling people they are wrong and there is a better way to do things. > forvik.com Interests me, more so to see that Stuart Hill could probably benefit from engaging in debate with people here (Though I can imagine he'd say it is a waste of time, which is often the answer I get from talking with people I know who just do their own thing and don't really care whether anyone approves or not.) and whilst I'm sure some of us wouldn't like him, both parties may benefit. He would learn a thing or two, and we would likewise, maybe one day we will see him here.

http://www.iceagenow.com/Ocean_Warming.htm

In all seriousness though, Nigel, this old-school quoting is unhelpful > because you're not saying who made the point you respond to. If people cannot remember who said something a moment ago, they need to pay more attention! Plus, its not necessarly important who said it, but what was said.. > When you move somewhere you should expect to adjust to the local > way - not force your preferences upon others. Arriving in Shetland with > a 'pfft! I am too smart for your conventions' attitude might work out > badly for you. Perhaps, you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time. > The smartest people I know are mentally agile, not set in their ways. The smartest people I know tend to go for effiency because life is too short to waste time on the little details, as such this can make them socially awkward to deal with at times, but there is no doubting their brilliance to solve problems for the rest of us. The best solution here is to replace the forum software with one with threading, then everyone can see who is replying to whose message more easily, to move forward with progress software, rather than to stick a band aid on something existing. If people do not like the way I talk, they are free not to listen or read, I leave it up to everyoen to decide whether they love me or hate me (This is the essence to talking with people, you get to know me, far better to know me now and tell me you don't want me to move there than for me to move here and then annoy you all with my attitude.. perhaps there is a nice unpopulated island you can direct me to.. )

I know one of those, down here that is. She offers a money back promise if it doesn't work, so you can't ask fairer than that. Her last client though it didn't work.. And she knows of people who suffered a mayor personality change (For the worst.) from seeing others, so I'm not sure its risk free. Perhaps learning meditation might help, and for those not wishing to spend ages learning how, a cheating method: http://www.bwgen.com There are some theories that some people self medicate by smoking, so you might need to replace the addiction with something less harmful as you might still need something to help you through the day.

> the same or would they be all different? Roughly the same, whilst there would be different sizes from single person dwellings to family units, they'd mostly be the same design. (Looking at dome shape.) But as they would be underground earth sheltered, you wouldn't be seeing much of them apart from the windows/doors, and if the doors are covered in fake rock/etc. you might not even see them! I'm very much not a fan of much modern architecture, it looks awful, and functionality wise, it sucks too. > you will want to do it as cheap > as possible I'd prefer to build quality over price. (Plus ease of maintence, design it for when it goes wrong, not if!) > are you going to do it out of your > own pocket then rent/sell them to > the council/hha???? Yes own pocket, rent only. Selling them would only lead later on to the price of housing to rise. (Hence eventually I'd want them owned by some community group so in the event of my death, everything can carry on as before and they are not sold off.) > all in one massive clump or spreading > them out??? I'm not sure on that yet, probably a clump, but I don't want an overcrowded clump. > also whats the expected timsescale on > this project? My current estimate is around 20 years to build some 15,000 homes. > to visit Shetland Thats on our todo list for next years holiday, this year we went to Devon. > think about what kind of business ideas > might actually work and be useful here, Agreed, I have been making a little note of suggestions people have mentioned elsewhere, and would be more than interested to hear of others. (Though I would like to try and avoid trending on toes of existing businesses.) The reason to start with teleworking is it would allow easy relocation of people if need be, but I'd be keen to branch out into other businesses, not just stick with hitech stuff. (A machine shop would be nice..) > There are lots of places in Britain > where building a new town would be > more realistic and useful than it > would here. I'd be most interested to hear where, so far from wandering around the country, virtually everywhere else doesn't want any building of new homes, or businesses, or even planting of woodland! (Even at the end of my road where they plan to build some 3,000 new homes, the local homeowners got it reduced to 2,000 new homes so as to help prevent congestion..) > Your ideas sound, frankly, silly All opinions are welcomed I must try and be less silly.. but one also has to entertain, but I am told often to be more serious, but where is the fun and excitment in that! I've an enthusiastic youthful outlook to life, which others often remark can be infectious. If that comes over as silly, well never mind, I'm sure what really interests people is the bottom line, if I can produce low cost housing and jobs, no one will care about silly old me > one finds it posible to learn how to > do qoutes properly. I choose not to, otherwise my head would be full of trivia, rather than figuring out how to save the planet.. > have never been past the Watford Gap I've lived around the UK, up north, down south, left a bit, right a bit. > rather than line some radom > bloke's pockets. I can understand the concern, but I want to bring wealth to the Islands, not take it away for myself, I want to reinvest in my neighbourhood, make not just my life better but those around me. No hiding behind a PR company for me, if anyones got a question, just ask > second smartest person in the world Nah, a friend of mine (A civil engineer, once at the beach we built a nice dam rather than a dull sandcastle..) she has a 210 IQ. The most important thing I know is how limited I am and what little I know, and that working cooperatively with others is the best way to improve everyones life. > intend to get approx 50% of the population > of Shetland to move to your new town or > do you intend shipping up 10,000 people > from the mainland A good question! I don't really know how popular my housing solution will be with the locals, or how many would want to work, or train for the jobs on offer. I would certainly want to give preference to someone here before importing anyone from the mainland. (Which is why elsewhere I was interested to hear what would be a sensible sustainable population level for various parts of the Islands and why, as I wouldn't want to ruin the place.) > where are they supposed to work? I'd want to create businesses to go along with the housing, don't want to create just yet another housing estate with no thought given to jobs. > Where are you going to place your > sewerage plant your power station > your hospital your schools etc etc. I don't know, but I'd want to chat with local people about suitable locations so as to make everyone happy. > Sounds like the perfect utopia Maybe, but you've got to try haven't you, its either that or let the council/government have a go at it, and they never seem to do a very good job..

Only a little rich, land is cheap and I'd be happy with a small home to start with. Not necessarly Fetlar for the 10,000 town sized community, but its a good place to start with a 20 people one and go from there. (I have in mind several stages might be best, a 20 people community, then go for a 200 person one, then 2,000, then the full wack of 10,000, not necessarly all in the same place.) I don't wish to get any loans, all built on hand work (Though there might possibly be some EU grants available for this sort of thing I've heard, but I'm not relying on that.) and reinvested in building a community I and everyone else can enjoy living in. I'm not alone in my endeavour, I'm also working with a bunch of Europeans who are also keen to build new communities all over Europe based on marriage between industrialisation, sustainable eco-friendly and more ethical non-exploitation of workers. http://en.technocracynet.eu Whilst not wishing to blow my own trumpet, I have various other skills, enough to build my own home solo if need be, I'm quite happy doing anything from hard manual labour digging trenches to architectural drawings, and having an IQ of 200 comes in awfully handy too

[mod]I have attempted to make this mess of threads semi-comprehensible. This has been split from the Wanting to move to Shetland thread. Please note that any misquoting/failure to use the quoting tags correctly may result in posts being removed.[/mod] > you will be lucky to build an out house let alone 1000 houses. One can but try, it does look at first glance at least that Shetland wants to encourage housing to be built and business development, at least compared with the rest of the UK. I'd hate to have to do as some of my colleges suggest and build in Sweden, when I'd much rather help my fellow man in my own country. (Even if its really hard to find someplace to build a new small town!) > come up and set up an iternet company Correct, though I don't intend to move here until I have a nice fat income from starting it here and enough money to buy land and build my own place and a few others, so I can offer cheap rented housing and jobs, in exchange for living in a low crime area. > The only answer I can see is a massive public building effort to > replace those council houses which have been sold off. Agreed, or perhaps private individuals can get together, be it in a cooperative or self financed and do what is needed for the people of the country, rather than expecting the council or government ever to get organised enough to do it for us.. > So why not offer those flats to people on the waiting list even if they > do not have the right number of points? An excellent idea! Who needs politicans when we can figure it out ourselves.. > Maybe we are getting to the stage where we need fenced patrolled > estates to house the most troublesome tenants I had pondered the very idea, I reckon with 20% of the population working as security guards and pulling double duty as street cleaners for example, crime could be kept under check. Though some think that if you have enough jobs for everyone, then crime naturally falls as the saying goes, the devil makes work for idle hands.. > its odd that its the none residents who want to keep shetland "pure" Just want to keep out the majority of freeloaders so it doesn't get spoilt like so much of the country already. > The cost of private renting is seriously damaging the finances > of some people in Shetland Its effecting the entire country as landlords squeeze every last penny from us they can. (Many of my wealthy friends are landlords and think nothing of upping the rent for example last month on a flat from £900 to £1200 because thats what the market will bear.) Due in part to some landlords who took out loans to buy the property in the first place, so they in turn are being squeezed by the banks.. It all strikes me as like another tax on being poor! Something I intend to do something about myself by renting out property far far below market rates at what it costs me to, rather than what fat profit I could make if I was so inclined. (Which also means no loans either.) Those on minimum wage levels are really struggling to afford anything today, with often people overcrowded in a single room to make ends meet, its not uncommon to find 50 people to a single 3 bedroom terrace place here! Think how much more competitive our country could become if we had low housing costs, low labour costs.. > If I moved to Glasgow, or Kent or Orkney, I could get on the > housing list there That is rapidly changing, here in this part of London you need proof that you've lived here for 10 years before you can get on the housing list, and its pretty difficult to prove unless you happen to have, oh say a TV license for every year you was homeless on the streets.. (You have to provide proof for every single month of every year..) And then the council have also introduced a new re-registration scheme thats becoming popular, ever year they send you a letter and if you don't write back, they throw you off the list. (Not everyone of course gets a letter and low betide you if you say you didn't when they insist you must have got one..) > If someone who has lost their job and been evicted and finds > themselves sleeping in a bus shelter, I defy you to explain why > they should not be placed higher on the list than someone in > Sandwick who fancies a council house in town so they can go > out on the piss more easily I quite agree there.

A friend of mine tells me that works equally as well with male callers too Unfortuantly just talking to them sometimes means they then repeatedly call back, if only the BT service "choose to refuse" had an option to reject international calls.. Perhaps an oppertunity for someone to market a gizmo that goes between your phone and your line to deal with such.. Another solution which can work well, is if you can find out which company is pestering you, to pass their number to another company who can repeatedly ring them up and pester them back.

> To classify a Shetlander it isn't as simple as where you are born, > in fact it would seem a too simplistic view if anything. I think your beginning to convince me there that your right. (I'm quite prepaired to admit I might be wrong about something, or learn a better solution, as I'm the first to admit I don't know all the answers, and many of the answers I do have in my back pocket come via listening to people in the first place.) > 1.) How long have you resided and paid taxes on the island for > along with your need for housing dictates your place on the list. I quite like that, though I'm not sure how it addresses the issue of young people who have yet to pay taxes and find themselves in need of housing. And without housing its harder to get a job to pay taxes to be entitled to housing.. Perhaps we can continue to evolve the solution together collectively with our inputs. > 2.) Have you arrived recently with no employment and are now > looking for a house then you get put on the boat south straight away, > no arguments off they go. That seems perfectly fair to me. As I'm looking long term to not just build a home for myself, but also to build up the community, at some point I'd like to have built some 10,000 homes, with a view to building 1,000 homes just to house all the current people on the waiting list, I wouldn't want to see the next year the waiting list back up to 1,000.. > should fetlar want to welcome strangers from london into there > community maybe they should impose anti hobbit regulations to > stop wanbe cave dwellers from living there. FX [ smiles ] You've got to have regulations, after all, you don't let just anyone live in your own home do you ? What if your home was quite large, a mansion perhaps, with 100 rooms, you'd want to make sure any guests if they was trouble makers got booted out straight away. It seems fair to me to only go where your welcomed. > Now maybe this does not happen as much as people believe > (or maybe it does) My girlfriend worked in immigration for a while here and was totally shocked by the very high level of scamming going on, and upset that genuine cases of need suffered because of it. My own neighbours are either in the group who are most upset by their good name being sullied as a people, or scammers themselves who talk quite openly about their latest way to help themselves. (Rule 1 on how to combat scammers, listen to them tell you how they do it!) > (single men being the prime example) always seem to be at the > bottom of the pile. In the borough that I'm in, last year less than a dozen single males under 50 years of age got housing, in another borough, because of the difference between rents and housing benefit, only a single male got housing benefit! At one time here, rents which had doubled due to council insistance to make things better for us reached £90, with max rent benefit of only £37. (This has since changed after making a bigger fuss about it in the press to now £88.) When I was homeless I was most suprised to see only wall to wall single men in the housing department waiting room/area. But its not just single men who have a hard time, its single parents with perhaps 1 or 2 kids, unable to get that magic 3rd kid which catapaults them suddenly to a place. Or its old folk on their own, struggling to look after themselves and threatened with hefty fines if they don't keep their place tidy. (How many people go out of their way to help such people, not many it seems..) > arrived homeless people to an area of the UK with surplus > council housing (North East England?) Not so long ago you could buy ex-council homes up north for only £2.5k, mine you they was on estates full of crime, unbelivable levels of crime! its not just the bullet holes in the windows that put you off.. Having lived on an estate up north myself, in one year only two homes in the entire street of 300+ houses wasn't burglered. One poor woman came home to find her entire home stripped right down to below the floorboards. Not far from me here is an estate where there is constantly 100+ empty flats, no one wants to live there and I can understand why. > Racism no, Indeed, there are few places one can talk about the subject without the race card being drawn and used against you. I had hoped because all parties involved would be the same general race, that it would enable us to go past that hurdle and look at the underlying causes, issues, solutions without getting distracted.

I work at home Being a fast reader and fast typist, and using some fancy software for many of the forums allows me to keep up suprisingly well. These fancy web forums are awfully slow though.

> I really don't think people understand my original argument which > was incomers recieving benefits from the local council in front of > Shetlanders (born and bred with family born and bred) I think I understood it. > so shetland should have no immigration Immigration yes, but controlled, otherwise you end up with the situation we have now.. > if we are to resolve the housing needs of shetland a long term plan Agreed, but it goes a little deeper than that, we need the same sort of plan country wide. > if a british citizen moves to a part of britian and they have a higher > housing need than another why should they not be housed Because a supringly large number of people get themselves classified as being in greater need than everyone else, and those patiently queing their lifetime for a chance never get a look in. A simple que system would make many people pretty happy.. Can you imagine if you ran a bus que like that.. > What defines a Shetlander? I think first off, someone born there. If anyones going to get priority, it should be the folk born in a place, and then everyone else. > I am disinclined to believe this Sadly this is only the tip of the iceberg, and why there is so much bad feeling brewing up in the country, and why some political parties are taking advantage of it, whilst others are until very recently, afraid of looking bad. Shetland shows the issue to be for what it is, unfairly exploiting a system based on how well you can lie about your need, or in fact, going out of your way to make yourself needy enough, and nothing to do with race or which country you came from in the first place. If nothing is done and its left to the free market, your end up with 50 people to a house like down here, unsanatary conditions with disease rampant, rats, cockroaches, out of control crime, not just drug related, but large scale frauds, and all because your trying to help those that need help when in fact, many of those needing help are still needing it, and its mainly the ones milking the system benefiting the most from your outstretched hand..

> How and where was that disposed of ? I believe on the UK side we built a 34 hectare siite called Samphire Hoe on former land under the sea, with it being pumped there if I remember correctly. http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/sciencetech/volcano-not-global-warming-effects-may-be-melting-an-antarctic-glacier/714 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071212103004.htm > Scientists have discovered what they think may be another reason > why Greenland 's ice is melting: a thin spot in Earth's crust is enabling > underground magma to heat the ice It might be due to this, rather than global warming. If so, perhaps we need to start drilling and siphoning off that heat, or we could: http://www.astronomyedinburgh.org/publications/journals/48/page3.shtml > One way to lower the temperature of the Earth would be to reduce the > amount of solar energy reaching it. This could be achieved by placing > a shield between the Earth and the Sun so that less solar energy > reaches the planet. http://www.nss.org/adastra/volume18/angel.html > The estimated total of less than $5 trillion is not out of line with the > value of the shield—$5 to $10 trillion over several decades. http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/11/07/sunspot_pla.html?category=earth&guid=20061107105030 > Nigel, why don't you use the I'm in 2,000+ forums, often with differing methods of quoting/etc. so I tend to stick to the standard I came across 20 years ago. Though without threading in messages here its harder to follow, but I guess eventually modern technology will catch up with forum software