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JGHR

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  1. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from George. in Covid 19 / Coronavirus   
    You mean just like when you were gullibly taken in by this headline in The Spectator the other day?
     
     
  2. Like
    JGHR reacted to Spinner72 in Covid 19 / Coronavirus   
    It would indicate that a scary amount of people chose to ignore scientific fact, the reality of life around them and plain old common sense, choosing to believe random hellery on youtube instead.
  3. Like
    JGHR reacted to George. in Covid 19 / Coronavirus   
    ^^Aye, but at present there have been 88,000 identified cases in Scotland, 3,500 of whom died. If the vaccine is what they say it is then it won't be 3,500 deaths - it'll be 350. That's a big difference
  4. Like
    JGHR reacted to Roachmill in Japan trade deal   
    It's a sad state when opinions are clung to despite requiring careful consideration. They're often held by people considering themselves free thinkers and not being taken in by any lovey-dovey leftly-liberal nonsense; making the hard choices that others are too scared to make. Nine times out of ten these are the same opinions being pushed by those with the most to gain, who control what the public hear and read and who are seamingly above the law. It doesn't take much to figure sh*t out as following the money invariably leads to what's really going on... but that may cast doubt on the dodgy opinions being agreed upon.
     
    This TED talk pretty much nails where today's opinions emanate from, how people were steered to hold them and hopefully to help folk to question what they read and hear:
     
    https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwalladr_facebook_s_role_in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy?language=en&fbclid=IwAR1p4sq-7UB3YFlje1fdBeu7n7SWIJsBmgMkNqZ0ZIlXgp5weI56zm90SVE#t-798630
  5. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Roachmill in Japan trade deal   
    About a year ago on the Brexit thread I invited you, and anyone else who cared to, to identify one single thing that would be better after BREXIT.  Back then I predicted that the answer would be silence, or some general unsubstantiated ranting and grumbling about the EU. I was right, a year ago none of the BREXIT champions of this forum could think up a single thing that was going to be better after BREXIT.  Not a single thing.
     
    Now I have invited you to think about BREXIT and what it's reality might mean for Shetlands crofters and you remain silent on that too. I have invited you to explain how British fishermen will be better off next year, more silence. The truth is you have no idea whatsoever if one single aspect of life will be in any way improved for anyone in Shetland, and yet you are perfectly comfortable gambling with the livelihoods of  Shetlands crofters - without even the vaguest understanding of the odds. Obliviously happy to see them driven to the wall, to satisfy, what on the face of it, is nothing more than a fanatical and utterly irrational hatred of the EU. 
     
    Next year, and the year after that, and then the next one, and the next, I hope you can still feel proud of what you voted for, because you are responsible for this. We all have to live with what you did, many of us for the rest of our lives.
  6. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Evil Inky in Brexit (merged threads)   
    This is a very good question and one which gets right to the crux of the matter, but I'm afraid you needn't expect even a semi sensible answer to it.
     
    I challenge anyone who is arguing in favour of Brexit to name one thing that will be improved, not may be, not might be not could be, one thing that will be improved after leaving. 
     
    What will we hear in reply? One of two things - silence or a list of rambling prejudices that are not improvements at all.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
  7. Like
    JGHR reacted to Evil Inky in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Erm... OK. How would my experience of purchasing Spanish wine be improved by the system you are proposing?
  8. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Selkie in Brexit (merged threads)   
    No need to be puzzled, its quite simple. Theresa May's Tory government negotiated a deal to leave the EU with the EU representatives. The EU did not 'give us' anything, they negotiated in good faith, with the British government of the time, terms under which Britain would leave the EU. The EU representatives were quite clear that some aspects of the deal they reached with Mrs May, namely the question of the Irish border were non negotiable for them. 
     

    Boris cannot get another deal that is correct, but not because negotiations are closed, they are not, but because he has no intention or desire to get another deal. So far the extent of his efforts to reach a new deal amount to, firstly, claiming that the changes of not reaching another deal were 'a million to one'. Secondly, bustling off to Brussels, so far as I recall on a single occasion, and telling the EU representatives to scrap the back stop which of course they rejected, as every single person in the country with an ounce of wit knew they were going to. Thirdly, returning to the UK and claiming that parliament had undermined his non existent negotiation. 
     
    Boris and his deluded bunch of public school boy cabinet chums are the only ones claiming that they can 'get another deal' and it strikes me that it's you doing most of the moaning.
     

    It was Boris and his merry band of Brexiteers who voted down Mrs May's deal, were it not for them Britain would already be out of the EU and 'Getting on with it' 'no ifs no buts', 'come what may', 'do or die'. Now that it seems more and more likely that Britain will remain in the EU, never forget who's fault that outcome will be. It will not be due to the 'remoaners' it will be the fault of Boris and the Tory party MPs who voted down the deal Mrs May reached. 
     
    Parliament will never allow Britain to leave without some kind of deal, because MP's are not permitted to do that under their code of conduct which says 'Members have a general duty to act in the interests of the nation as a whole; and a special duty to their constituents.'   The majority of MP's understand that allowing the UK to leave the EU without a deal would not be 'acting in the interests of the nation as a whole' therefore they are prohibited from facilitating that outcome.
     
    Boris will never reach a deal with the EU ever, unless he suddenly changes tack, and Britain will never leave with no deal. If you want Britain to leave the EU the only hope you have, ironically enough, is if Prime Minister Corbyn goes to Brussels and negotiates the exit. Keep that in mind when marking your card at the upcoming election. 
     
  9. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from mikeyboy in Brexit (merged threads)   
    No need to be puzzled, its quite simple. Theresa May's Tory government negotiated a deal to leave the EU with the EU representatives. The EU did not 'give us' anything, they negotiated in good faith, with the British government of the time, terms under which Britain would leave the EU. The EU representatives were quite clear that some aspects of the deal they reached with Mrs May, namely the question of the Irish border were non negotiable for them. 
     

    Boris cannot get another deal that is correct, but not because negotiations are closed, they are not, but because he has no intention or desire to get another deal. So far the extent of his efforts to reach a new deal amount to, firstly, claiming that the changes of not reaching another deal were 'a million to one'. Secondly, bustling off to Brussels, so far as I recall on a single occasion, and telling the EU representatives to scrap the back stop which of course they rejected, as every single person in the country with an ounce of wit knew they were going to. Thirdly, returning to the UK and claiming that parliament had undermined his non existent negotiation. 
     
    Boris and his deluded bunch of public school boy cabinet chums are the only ones claiming that they can 'get another deal' and it strikes me that it's you doing most of the moaning.
     

    It was Boris and his merry band of Brexiteers who voted down Mrs May's deal, were it not for them Britain would already be out of the EU and 'Getting on with it' 'no ifs no buts', 'come what may', 'do or die'. Now that it seems more and more likely that Britain will remain in the EU, never forget who's fault that outcome will be. It will not be due to the 'remoaners' it will be the fault of Boris and the Tory party MPs who voted down the deal Mrs May reached. 
     
    Parliament will never allow Britain to leave without some kind of deal, because MP's are not permitted to do that under their code of conduct which says 'Members have a general duty to act in the interests of the nation as a whole; and a special duty to their constituents.'   The majority of MP's understand that allowing the UK to leave the EU without a deal would not be 'acting in the interests of the nation as a whole' therefore they are prohibited from facilitating that outcome.
     
    Boris will never reach a deal with the EU ever, unless he suddenly changes tack, and Britain will never leave with no deal. If you want Britain to leave the EU the only hope you have, ironically enough, is if Prime Minister Corbyn goes to Brussels and negotiates the exit. Keep that in mind when marking your card at the upcoming election. 
     
  10. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Frizbee in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    It might just be wishful thinking on my part, but I get the impression that younger folk are more engaged with the political process than they have been in the past. I think its a consequence of the monumental balls ups inflicted on them such as lack of action on climate change, and now Brexit. For that reason I think/hope we might see a swing towards more progressive thinking political representation in years to come. 
     
    Also keep in mind that some millennials are not actually that young any more. Difficult to believe as it may be for oldies like me but 1980 was nigh on 40 year ago now.  
  11. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from gafynandrew in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    Now that the field is known I've changed my mind slightly. I think it's between Ryan Thomson and Tom Wills. The Lib Dems missed a trick with their selection and I mean that with absolutely no disrespect to Beatrice Wishart.  It's the millennials and post millennials who are going to decide this election and I expect them to select one of their own. 
     
    Shetland could do much worse than send Ryan Thomson to Holyrood, in the event of a hung parliament in 2021 he would wield considerable power and be in a position to extract tremendous benefit for Shetland.
  12. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from mikeyboy in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    Sadly, I think you're probably right.
     
    There are Shetlanders who will still vote for UKIP or, if they were standing their brethren in the Brexit party, regardless of how woefully under informed those party candidates may be about Shetland or its specific needs. 
     
    I suppose that's democracy for you though, stupid people are allowed to vote, and they may vote for stupid candidates who will provide stupid representation. 
     
    That's why free university education, in any discipline, provides a net benefit to society, and also why some politicians oppose it.
     
    If the election were tomorrow I'd vote heads Michael Stout or tails Ryan Thomson. I think either one would do equally as good a job at achieving the best outcomes for Shetland.
     
    It was heads - Michael Stout got my vote.
  13. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Windwalker in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    An independent in a hung parliament can’t be ignored. That’s what I’m hoping for in 2021. Even Tavish, when he was in a powerful position in government, was constrained in his ability to put Shetland first. An independent, free from the whip, can and should unashamedly put his constituents first and to hell with the rest of the country.
  14. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from concerned shetlander in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    Very interesting. I think Ryan Thomson will do well, I expect he'll get a lot of the under 40 age group vote which otherwise might favour the SNP.  I think it will be between him and whoever the Lib Dems put up, but it may well be the end of an era.
     

    He's either a show of or no ass, time will tell!
  15. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from mikeyboy in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    You'll be getting another vote in 2021 if you don't like the outcome, and following that, another one every four years thereafter .
     
    If its good enough for you why do you suppose it shouldn't be good enough for them?
  16. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from waarigeo in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    Now that the field is known I've changed my mind slightly. I think it's between Ryan Thomson and Tom Wills. The Lib Dems missed a trick with their selection and I mean that with absolutely no disrespect to Beatrice Wishart.  It's the millennials and post millennials who are going to decide this election and I expect them to select one of their own. 
     
    Shetland could do much worse than send Ryan Thomson to Holyrood, in the event of a hung parliament in 2021 he would wield considerable power and be in a position to extract tremendous benefit for Shetland.
  17. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Acid in Poll - 2019 Shetland MSP by-election   
    Now that the field is known I've changed my mind slightly. I think it's between Ryan Thomson and Tom Wills. The Lib Dems missed a trick with their selection and I mean that with absolutely no disrespect to Beatrice Wishart.  It's the millennials and post millennials who are going to decide this election and I expect them to select one of their own. 
     
    Shetland could do much worse than send Ryan Thomson to Holyrood, in the event of a hung parliament in 2021 he would wield considerable power and be in a position to extract tremendous benefit for Shetland.
  18. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Davie P in Brexit (merged threads)   
    You see George, that's the problem, could be solved - not would.
     
    A lot of things could happen, but unfortunately most of them do not and the fishing is a case in point.  I am no expert on the EU fishing rules, but it is clear that the people who are, or should be, experts - the fishermen, despise the current situation and would do almost anything to see it changed. 
     
    The problem is however the entire economic output of the UK fishing industry is tiny to the point that it is not significant in any material terms to the country as a whole - just over 1 tenth of 1 percent of the all UK economic output. <link will download a pdf for you to read>. It is of course hugely significant to fishing communities like Shetland the North East of Scotland, and Scotland as a whole, but as far as the people who are going to determine what happens post BREXIT are concerned it is as good as worthless.  That is why fishing rights to UK waters will almost certainly be bargained away and used as leverage in an attempt to gain more favorable outcomes in sectors of the economy which provide more economic value to the UK as a whole. The notion that voting for BREXIT, far less a no deal BREXIT will result in improved conditions in the UK fishing industry is far from certain and when you think about it objectively it appears incredibly unlikely.
     
    Like Hilaire Belloc's boy named Jim, the fishing industry might well find instead of testing its fate in the jaws of the westminster lion it was better off keeping a hold of the EU nursemaid.
  19. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from thebfg in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Apologies for butting in Davie P, I hope you don't mind if I lend George a hand and make a start because lately I've been feeling a bit disillusioned by the various democratic processes. I mean how can anyone feel enthusiastic about a system that delivers the presidency of the United States to someone who is as abjectly unsuitable as Donald Trump? I struggle with a system that has brought us to the brink of dismantling the very philosophy which has maintained prosperity and peace throughout Europe for the past 70 years and, in Australia where I live, I despair when I find multiple unashamed neo nazi parties on my voting card which only has one last place.
     
    What can be done about it? Firstly abolish the first past the post voting system, it is manifestly undemocratic and forsakes half, or more, of the voters. Replace it with a representative voting system. Secondly introduce laws to hold politicians to account. If they mislead or misrepresent the truth - imprison them.  Companies are not allowed to misrepresent their products and if an individual lies and causes someone to suffer a loss they can take civil action and hold the liar to account. Why should politicians be allowed to arbitrarily lie and cause enormous loss to every single citizen in the country and then retire in comfort to a country mansion or lucrative speaking circuit position without any accountability whatsoever? Thirdly, maybe introduce compulsory voting, although I'm not entirely sold on the idea. I generally tend to be of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that the population are generally decent sensible people and if everyone votes you should get decent sensible representation. The theory being with optional voting and low voter turnout the lunatic fringe are more easily rallied and so are more likely to vote than the average person, therefore you get more lunatic fringe representation.
       
    The root of the problem, as I see it, is that reality no longer matters, the truth is no longer valued by politicians, and the malady is fast spreading to the population at large. Mark Twain noted how a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth gets its boots on, and he never saw facebook or twitter.  Our democratic system needs to adapt to deal with the world where misinformation is so easily published by liars and spread by the ignorant.  
  20. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Davie P in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Apologies for butting in Davie P, I hope you don't mind if I lend George a hand and make a start because lately I've been feeling a bit disillusioned by the various democratic processes. I mean how can anyone feel enthusiastic about a system that delivers the presidency of the United States to someone who is as abjectly unsuitable as Donald Trump? I struggle with a system that has brought us to the brink of dismantling the very philosophy which has maintained prosperity and peace throughout Europe for the past 70 years and, in Australia where I live, I despair when I find multiple unashamed neo nazi parties on my voting card which only has one last place.
     
    What can be done about it? Firstly abolish the first past the post voting system, it is manifestly undemocratic and forsakes half, or more, of the voters. Replace it with a representative voting system. Secondly introduce laws to hold politicians to account. If they mislead or misrepresent the truth - imprison them.  Companies are not allowed to misrepresent their products and if an individual lies and causes someone to suffer a loss they can take civil action and hold the liar to account. Why should politicians be allowed to arbitrarily lie and cause enormous loss to every single citizen in the country and then retire in comfort to a country mansion or lucrative speaking circuit position without any accountability whatsoever? Thirdly, maybe introduce compulsory voting, although I'm not entirely sold on the idea. I generally tend to be of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that the population are generally decent sensible people and if everyone votes you should get decent sensible representation. The theory being with optional voting and low voter turnout the lunatic fringe are more easily rallied and so are more likely to vote than the average person, therefore you get more lunatic fringe representation.
       
    The root of the problem, as I see it, is that reality no longer matters, the truth is no longer valued by politicians, and the malady is fast spreading to the population at large. Mark Twain noted how a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth gets its boots on, and he never saw facebook or twitter.  Our democratic system needs to adapt to deal with the world where misinformation is so easily published by liars and spread by the ignorant.  
  21. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from George. in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Apologies for butting in Davie P, I hope you don't mind if I lend George a hand and make a start because lately I've been feeling a bit disillusioned by the various democratic processes. I mean how can anyone feel enthusiastic about a system that delivers the presidency of the United States to someone who is as abjectly unsuitable as Donald Trump? I struggle with a system that has brought us to the brink of dismantling the very philosophy which has maintained prosperity and peace throughout Europe for the past 70 years and, in Australia where I live, I despair when I find multiple unashamed neo nazi parties on my voting card which only has one last place.
     
    What can be done about it? Firstly abolish the first past the post voting system, it is manifestly undemocratic and forsakes half, or more, of the voters. Replace it with a representative voting system. Secondly introduce laws to hold politicians to account. If they mislead or misrepresent the truth - imprison them.  Companies are not allowed to misrepresent their products and if an individual lies and causes someone to suffer a loss they can take civil action and hold the liar to account. Why should politicians be allowed to arbitrarily lie and cause enormous loss to every single citizen in the country and then retire in comfort to a country mansion or lucrative speaking circuit position without any accountability whatsoever? Thirdly, maybe introduce compulsory voting, although I'm not entirely sold on the idea. I generally tend to be of the (admittedly uninformed) opinion that the population are generally decent sensible people and if everyone votes you should get decent sensible representation. The theory being with optional voting and low voter turnout the lunatic fringe are more easily rallied and so are more likely to vote than the average person, therefore you get more lunatic fringe representation.
       
    The root of the problem, as I see it, is that reality no longer matters, the truth is no longer valued by politicians, and the malady is fast spreading to the population at large. Mark Twain noted how a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth gets its boots on, and he never saw facebook or twitter.  Our democratic system needs to adapt to deal with the world where misinformation is so easily published by liars and spread by the ignorant.  
  22. Like
    JGHR reacted to Davie P in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Why the UK cannot see that Brexit is utterly, utterly stupid
     
    Spot on....
     
  23. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Davie P in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Once again it pays to examine the facts.
     

     
    1. Nobody knows how much the tariff on goods exported to other nations world wide in the event of a no deal BREXIT will be because they are not yet established. What is known with a high degree of certainty is that it will be less favourable for British manufacturers and consumers than the status quo.
     

     
    2.The notion that Great Britain will simply negotiate favourable individual trade deals with other Non EU countries is fantasy. The reason it is fantasy is because circa 95% of the countries in the world are members of the WTO and any individual deal with these countries must be in accordance with WTO rules. 
     

     
    3.WTO rules mean that individual members are indeed free to negotiate terms of trade with any other country they wish but those trade deals must follow the conditions laid out in the schedules each individual country must agree when it first joins the WTO. Liam Fox, him who previously claimed that any post BREXIT trade deal would be "the easiest in human history", went to Geneva last year to instruct the WTO that a post BREXIT UK would simply adopt the very favorable terms in the existing EU schedules of membership they currently enjoy and which was negotiated for them as a member of the EU by the EU .  
     

     
    4. At the Geneva meeting the USA, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil very quickly kiboshed Fox's pompous plan and sent him homeward to think again.
     

     
    5. Disabused of the notion that bossing the WTO members into allowing Great Britain to dictate the terms of their membership schedules would be the easiest of things it eventually dawned on Fox that perhaps Theresa Mays deal with the EU wasn't such a bad thing after all, and so at the back end of last year he changed his mind and concluded that Mrs May had in fact achieved "the best possible deal that safely delivers BREXIT".
     

     
    6.The text of the WTO schedules which determine what a post BREXIT UK can and cannot agree in any subsequent trade deal with WTO members thus remains unwritten.
     

     
    7. Any of the 160 odd WTO member countries can object to the conditions laid out in the schedules which the UK will have to draft and get accepted by the WTO before they are even able to begin negotiating a direct trade deal with individual countries.
     

     
    8. Getting consensus across 160 different WTO countries is unlikely to be any easier than negotiating an orderly exit from the EU has been.
     

     
    9. The EU will be instrumental in the WTO schedule negotiations because it will be the EU representative who is negotiating the terms of post BREXIT UK’s WTO schedule conditions on behalf of the remaining EU members.
     

     
    10. It will not be easy, and it will take years and years before a post BREXIT UK is even able to  begin negotiating a trade deal with another WTO member. The UK has next to zero bargaining power, they will be in a desperately weak position and they will have little option to take what is handed to them by the WTO and that will not be good.

     
  24. Like
    JGHR got a reaction from Capeesh in Brexit (merged threads)   
    Once again it pays to examine the facts.
     

     
    1. Nobody knows how much the tariff on goods exported to other nations world wide in the event of a no deal BREXIT will be because they are not yet established. What is known with a high degree of certainty is that it will be less favourable for British manufacturers and consumers than the status quo.
     

     
    2.The notion that Great Britain will simply negotiate favourable individual trade deals with other Non EU countries is fantasy. The reason it is fantasy is because circa 95% of the countries in the world are members of the WTO and any individual deal with these countries must be in accordance with WTO rules. 
     

     
    3.WTO rules mean that individual members are indeed free to negotiate terms of trade with any other country they wish but those trade deals must follow the conditions laid out in the schedules each individual country must agree when it first joins the WTO. Liam Fox, him who previously claimed that any post BREXIT trade deal would be "the easiest in human history", went to Geneva last year to instruct the WTO that a post BREXIT UK would simply adopt the very favorable terms in the existing EU schedules of membership they currently enjoy and which was negotiated for them as a member of the EU by the EU .  
     

     
    4. At the Geneva meeting the USA, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil very quickly kiboshed Fox's pompous plan and sent him homeward to think again.
     

     
    5. Disabused of the notion that bossing the WTO members into allowing Great Britain to dictate the terms of their membership schedules would be the easiest of things it eventually dawned on Fox that perhaps Theresa Mays deal with the EU wasn't such a bad thing after all, and so at the back end of last year he changed his mind and concluded that Mrs May had in fact achieved "the best possible deal that safely delivers BREXIT".
     

     
    6.The text of the WTO schedules which determine what a post BREXIT UK can and cannot agree in any subsequent trade deal with WTO members thus remains unwritten.
     

     
    7. Any of the 160 odd WTO member countries can object to the conditions laid out in the schedules which the UK will have to draft and get accepted by the WTO before they are even able to begin negotiating a direct trade deal with individual countries.
     

     
    8. Getting consensus across 160 different WTO countries is unlikely to be any easier than negotiating an orderly exit from the EU has been.
     

     
    9. The EU will be instrumental in the WTO schedule negotiations because it will be the EU representative who is negotiating the terms of post BREXIT UK’s WTO schedule conditions on behalf of the remaining EU members.
     

     
    10. It will not be easy, and it will take years and years before a post BREXIT UK is even able to  begin negotiating a trade deal with another WTO member. The UK has next to zero bargaining power, they will be in a desperately weak position and they will have little option to take what is handed to them by the WTO and that will not be good.

     
  25. Like
    JGHR reacted to Claadehol in Brexit (merged threads)   
    JGHR I would also like to bring a little balance here.
    I worked at Irlam steelworks,  Manchester, at the end of the 60s and beginning of the 70s. I was involved in the calculation of the production figures, from ingot to bloom and finally to rolled billets.  Ted Heath and his cronies closed the place making thousands redundant. 
     
    There were various reasons for closure but I would suggest the main was the way this nationalised industry was run, and the lack of accountability.
     
    When the blast furnace was operating various additions had to be made to the cast in order to produce different qualities of steel. So many shovels of aluminium, manganese, etc.
    There was a couldn't care less attitude which caused loss of a great deal of money. A cast of steel might be planned such as a high quality killed steel, but because the guy shovelling in the additions into the mix didn't care too much, after samples were taken of the finished cast  it had to be downgraded to a low grade balanced steel. This kind of idiocy caused the loss of a great deal of money.
     
    This attitude, plus the quantity of men clocking each other in and out, and those sneaking off to the working men's club up the road, was certainly partly responsible for the closure.
     
    The men closed the steelworks themselves. 
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