Independence for Shetland!

[sheepshagger]

 

Norway has the benefit of a liberal socialist legacy of government, not to mention around 1000 times the geographical space and therefore capacity and capability to produce exchange value from its resources. This has allowed the governments of the country to gather and spend state funds on internal infrastructure, etc. It now has a largely Administrative and Technological economy made up from a highly skilled workforce. Shetland has neither the history nor the latter attributes. The fishing industry is productive economically because they are not an EU country, however, what effect this will have on the longer term environmental effect and sustainability of the industry we are yet to see. Norway was one of the last countries to give equal rights to women, it has the highest male suicide rate in the world, one of the the highest rates of alcoholism, the highest single person population in the world and one of the lowest birthrates.

 

On the udal law argument, Shetland never owned herself before the 15th century dowry to Scotland. The islands belonged to the Danish Kingdom, as did Norway under a relationship of serfdom. If you want udal law you must also want a reversal of Imperial productive progress. i.e feudalism then capitalism for the system to work. Without a time machine the chances are slim.

 

Orkney and Shetland never belonged to Denmark we had a Danish king and even this is up for debate. We were part of the Norwegian realm and Norway came under the yolk Of Denmark.

 

The surpluss of money that Norway has built up is due to the fact that it has control over its oil income and they have still managed to amass a fortune even though like you pointed out they have a 1000 times the geographical area of Shetland this means a 1000 times the cost for roads, ferries, electricity distribution and all manner of infrastructure.

 

Politically Shetland is fairly liberal.

 

If we were not part of the UK we could build up all manner of jobs by offering a tax system similar to the Isle of Man, Bermuda, the Cayman's, Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, do I need to go on the list is pretty long of small islands that manage to do rather well for themselves without a huge population or land mass.

 

The fishing in Norway will outlast any in the Euro zone because they have proper control over the effort not ridiculous quotas that force fishermen to discard fish that are already dead.

 

As for not having a highly skilled workforce I can't see where you get that idea, I know of a lot of employers all over the world who will hire a Shetlander without refrences just because they are from Shetland, they seem to think we are highly skilled, hard working, reliable, honest etc.

I wonder where they got that idea.

 

And do I want a reversal of feudalism damn right I do, I don't believe the Windsors have a god given right to own the land.

Norway by the way is still UDAL and also capitalist.

 

A low birth rate is a sign of prosperity what really matters is how many of those live births make it to adulthood, and how many are to single women. Africa has a high birth rate and on the whole they are pretty piss poor.

 

A single population also is a sign of prosperity it means young folk are busy with there careers not grabbing the first one to come along and breed with, it shows that folk have a choice.

 

And as for Alchoholism you need to have a fair few bob to go on the piss in Norway so at least they are wealthy alckies

[Jordan]

Norway has the benefit of a liberal socialist legacy of government, not to mention around 1000 times the geographical space and therefore capacity and capability to produce exchange value from its resources. This has allowed the governments of the country to gather and spend state funds on internal infrastructure, etc. It now has a largely Administrative and Technological economy made up from a highly skilled workforce. Shetland has neither the history nor the latter attributes. The fishing industry is productive economically because they are not an EU country, however, what effect this will have on the longer term environmental effect and sustainability of the industry we are yet to see. Norway was one of the last countries to give equal rights to women, it has the highest male suicide rate in the world, one of the the highest rates of alcoholism, the highest single person population in the world and one of the lowest birthrates.

 

On the udal law argument, Shetland never owned herself before the 15th century dowry to Scotland. The islands belonged to the Danish Kingdom, as did Norway under a relationship of serfdom. If you want udal law you must also want a reversal of Imperial productive progress. i.e feudalism then capitalism for the system to work. Without a time machine the chances are slim.

Orkney and Shetland never belonged to Denmark we had a Danish king and even this is up for debate. We were part of the Norwegian realm and Norway came under the yolk Of Denmark.

Therefore, Norway was a part of the Danish Kingdom at the time. And so, at the time of the betrothal Norway and Shetland were managed/governed/owned by Denmark. Shetland was not independent.

The surpluss of money that Norway has built up is due to the fact that it has control over its oil income and they have still managed to amass a fortune even though like you pointed out they have a 1000 times the geographical area of Shetland this means a 1000 times the cost for roads, ferries, electricity distribution and all manner of infrastructure.

I agree with you here in principle, but to compare Shetland with Norway in terms of economic prospect makes absolutely no sense for the reasons we have both outlined.

Politically Shetland is fairly liberal.

But state ownership is a major feature of the success of Norway's economy. How do you propose that a similar system would work in Shetland? On what terms? How would it be managed? What would be managed? Who by? - Remember the oil won't last forever, and eco-fuel systems have their own issues still to be resolved.

The fishing in Norway will outlast any in the Euro zone because they have proper control over the effort not ridiculous quotas that force fishermen to discard fish that are already dead.

The attitude of Norway on this is selfish. Most scientists believe that the seas are being over-fished.

As for not having a highly skilled workforce I can't see where you get that idea, I know of a lot of employers all over the world who will hire a Shetlander without refrences just because they are from Shetland, they seem to think we are highly skilled, hard working, reliable, honest etc.

I wonder where they got that idea.

Forestry, minerals and the blue chip industry are major parts of the Norwegian economy. All of these are absent in Shetland.

And do I want a reversal of feudalism damn right I do, I don't believe the Windsors have a god given right to own the land.

Norway by the way is still UDAL and also capitalist.

So we can all go back to the romantic past, bulldoze our cities, our offices and plant our own neeps, tatties and feed our own sheep instead? No thanks. Norway also has a monarchy.

A low birth rate is a sign of prosperity what really matters is how many of those live births make it to adulthood, and how many are to single women. Africa has a high birth rate and on the whole they are pretty piss poor.

This is a ridiculous and offensive comparison. Many academics have expressed concern over the large single population and low birth rate and predict a workforce crisis in the future.

A single population also is a sign of prosperity it means young folk are busy with there careers not grabbing the first one to come along and breed with, it shows that folk have a choice.

A fair point, but personally I believe they are too busy accumulating money rather than spending it.

And as for Alchoholism you need to have a fair few bob to go on the piss in Norway so at least they are wealthy alckies

Comparatively you don't. If you work in Norway the prices are not inflated as they seem to us.

 

Independence for Shetland is a worthwhile debate to be had, but Udal law is just a fairytale.

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[sheepshagger]

I agree with you here in principle, but to compare Shetland with Norway in terms of economic prospect makes absolutely no sense for the reasons we have both outlined.

I never set out to compare us on a like for like basis with Norway just pointed out that they had amassed a fortune from the oil industry. But compare us to the many island economies that prosper I gave a list but you have ignored it completly, maybe you dont want to as it would prove your argument wrong

I reckon we would be a hell of a lot better off than Norway

The attitude of Norway on this is selfish. Most scientists believe that the seas are being over-fished. But state ownership is a major feature of the success of Norway's economy. How do you propose that a similar system would work in Shetland? On what terms? How would it be managed? What would be managed? Who by? - Remember the oil won't last forever, and eco-fuel systems have their own issues still to be resolved

what is selfish about it they catch the fish and sell it on the open market?

and most scientists couldn't catch a fish if jamp in the boat beside them.

the oil wont last forever but the money made from it could.

and like Norway the oil could be state owned we would then contract the oil companies to get it out the ground for us.

In Shetland we already have a state owned transport system the ferries payed for by us

funny though in the tartan islands to the west of scotland they are payed for by the government

Forestry, minerals and the blue chip industry are major parts of the Norwegian economy. All of these are absent in Shetland.

Not a hell of a lot of trees so no need for forestry, minerals well we could open up a few quarries but that would bring objections from the greens again. and no reason why we couldn't have blue chip industries here

So we can all go back to the romantic past, bulldoze our cities, our offices and plant our own neeps, tatties and feed our own sheep instead? No thanks.

now you really are just talking pish.

This is a ridiculous and offensive comparison. Many academics have expressed concern over the large single population and low birth rate and predict a workforce crisis in the future.

what do you find ridiculous and offensive about it, you were the one that brought up birth rates I just pointed out that low birth rate is a sign of a prosperous economy and a high birth rate the opposite

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[Jordan]

I'm not taking the piss honest - what would you suggest instead? And the point about being offensive is related to how you compare Norway's birth rate with that of a 3rd world CONTINENT, Africa.

 

Have you read any of the research on declining fishing stocks. I have - it's true it really is happening. Why don't you trust scientists, they're the same folk that suck the oil up from the ground too you know. You also believe our tiny little Shetland could tell BP what to do? Russia can't even do that.

 

What do you expect to find in the quarries? Diamonds?

 

Finally, please explain why a low birthrate represents a prosperous economy. Russia, China, Hong Kong and Iran are just 4 developed and prosperous countries that are taking active measures to address their low birth rate and avoid a population crisis.

 

Though this is all off point. No independence for Shetland. It's unsustainable, unmanageable and unwanted.

[sheepshagger]

only Hong Kong is developed and prosperous Russia and China are developing and Iran well their too busy praying 5 times a day to develop

china worried about a dwindeling population get a grip. And Irans population is quite high too. Maybe they are running out of cannon fodder for their next jihad

 

Norway low birth rate Africa high birth rate, Norway prosperous Africa poor

how can you find the truth offensive

 

I expect to find minerals in Quarries

 

and only 33% so far want to keep the status Quo

 

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[Jordan]

Because of your narrow minded bigoted and xenophobic comments on Iran and Africa I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Is there anyone out there with anything interesting and informed to add to this debate please.

 

[mod]Excess quoting removed[/mod]

[sheepshagger]

Because of your narrow minded bigoted and xenophobic comments on Iran and Africa I'm not discussing this with you anymore. Is there anyone out there with anything interesting and informed to add to this debate please.

 

Africa is poverty stricken this is a statement of truth it is neither bigoted or xenophobic

If you would like my opinion on why Africa is poverty stricken we could start another thread

During the war with Iraq, Iran lined up its own people and marched them into minefields to clear the way for soldiers the government considered more worthy of survival ie ones that didn't disagree with them out loud. they indoctrinated children to strap explosives to themselves and get close to the enemy before detonating these explosives. In fact this is where hammas and al quaida took there inspiration from, Iran still celebrates these marters some of the parents rejoice in their childrens martardom, I can not have any respect for people like that

They used islam for their own twisted ends and still do

I find these practices inhuman abhorent and many other adjectives that cant be used on this forum.I take it you agree with these practices or are you just ignorant of them.

 

and to add to my last post China and Russia's economies are growing faster than Europes or the USAs so a low birth rate is proof of a growing economy then.

 

Oh yeah only 31% agree with you now

 

maybe what you should of written was does anyone agree with me as I will only discuss this with them pleeeaase

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[Jordan]

7 people who disagree with me, I could name more that probably do.

 

On Iran: where do you get this stuff? Seriously, give me URL's or something so that I can see for myself - I mean it. Here's one for you to look up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/iran/

 

Maybe you read the Sun or something worse. Or just make it up. You keep contradicting yourself too. One minute you are saying that all Iranians are devout Muslim Jihadists, the next bemoaning their supposed deaths in the Iran/Iraq war. I suspect that you know nothing about that war, nothing about Iran, the Muslim faith, the Qur’an, or Christianity for that matter. Have you read any of the Qur’an for yourself? Do you know any Iranian people? I have and I know many Iranians who are wonderful people and have taught me more about their country than most of the Western media has.

 

Low birth rate is about as much proof of a growing economy as saying that the sun is yellow so all yellow things are the sun.

 

Your first comment about Africa was scripted in a negative way. You need to think more about what you are trying to say before you write it, otherwise it reads as simple vitriol. You might want to pay more attention to your spelling and grammar too.

[Ghostrider]

No independence for Shetland.

 

It's unsustainable,

 

Leaving aside that full independence is only one or the three proposed choices. Several other small island groups, with less, or at least no more natural resources than Shetland would have if it had total control out to 200 miles/half way to neighbouring land, seem to have sustained, and are sustaining, some even apparently prospering quite well, why not us?

 

unmanageable

 

The above mentioned island groups seem to have managed, and are managing quite well, why not us? Granted, with the current rulers in the Town Hall upgraded to the job, I would have serious misgivings about managability, but when the stakes were raised in other island groups, it seems individuals of more suitable leadership calibre stepped up to the plate.

 

and unwanted.

 

It is? We had a referendum, when? Councillors stood on a pro/anti devolution/independence ticket, when? I am aware some may hold up the failure of the Shetland Movement to gain widespread support in the past as some sort of anti-independence proof. However, that will always be a debatable point, as plenty would tell you there lack of support had little to do with their policies, and just about everything to do with a general lack of confidence in the individuals running it.

[sheepshagger]

Oh my dear sweet Jordan, I have said time and again on this forum that I do not get my information from the internet so I can't give you a URL. But I can direct you to Leasks/travelscope they could sell you a novel thing called an air ticket you can use this to travel to Iran and find out for yourself. there are murals on walls in Tehran of the poor peerie souls they duped into killing themselves and they have a holiday for the first poor sausage who blew himself up and he never managed to take one Iraqi with him. Iran is probably the most devout muslim country outside Saudia The government practices sharia law. It is not a contradiction to say they are devout muslims and bemoan the fact that they killed thousands of their own. A low birth rate is an indicator that an economy is booming(working women don't have time to get pregnant) it is not the only indicator though and you should take other factors into account, and a high birth rate is ussually an indicator of poverty. and to say a falling birth rate is a problem experianced in only a few places is a tad missleading as birth rates are falling all over the planet If you want proof of this get the figures from the WHO on birth rates and then get figures from the world bank on how prosperous those countries are.

I have spent a great deal of my life in the middle east and laugh at what is reported in the papers here both the tabloids and the broadsheets.

and as far as the BBC is concerned what can I say apart from sprootle

I never get past page three of the sun, before turning to the sports pages If my spelling is a problem for you I will try to find a cure for dyslexia next time I'm home

[markj]

I find it strange that 47% of the people who've voted have voted for Full Independence. The nostalgic pipe dream of Shetland being a country is pie in the sky.

 

Comparing Shetland with Faroe which is only double the population of Shetland, the SIC probably has had more money to spend on infrastructure than Faroe since the oil came to Shetland.

 

Faroe are a forward thinking community and open to new ideas on how to improve their way of life i.e. by minimising travel time by building sub-sea tunnels, also in a sporting sense they made astro turf pitches in every town village and back garden!. The SIC however can not make simple decisions like building a bridge to Bressay and waste millions of pounds in a pointless investments like Smyril Line.

 

Would you really want to be 'governed' by basically the same councillors who are in place now? think about it people. Sandy Cluness - Prime Minister of Shetland? na na

[Dagfinn]

Is there anyone out there with anything interesting and informed to add to this debate please.

This is an internal Shetland topic, and I don´t have any opinion on this (and of course I din´t vote ); but I can add some external information that might be relevant for this very topic.

 

I can tell you the Faroese “story†and why I support the “Crown dependency†status the Faroes have today.

 

Back in the 1910´s, 1920´s when Faroe was still a Danish county and Greenland still a Danish colony, the Danish decision makers in Copenhagen gathered to discuss the future roadbuilding for the newly invented automobiles that had made their appearence in Denmark.

The decision makers soon reached the conclusion, that building roads in the mountainous northernmost Danish province Faroe, was impossible. So on went 20-30 years, where road building “exploded†in “Southern Denmark†as it was also called, while Faroe in this respect was totally neglected, except for some few primitive roads that the British built during WWII . Not until the Faroese took over their own internal affairs, with the home-rule agreement back in 1948, road building really started in Faroe. Today not only have all villages in Faroe been connected by roads and tunnels, but the main islands, where 85% of all Faroe islanders live, are also connected by bridges and sub-sea tunnels.

You think all this would have happened if decisions were still to be taken in Copenhagen? Keep on dreaming.

 

Need I tell you, the decision makers in Copenhagen soon agreed on, that building an airport in Faroe was impossible. Still after the British had built the first airport during WWII, the Danes concluded that it was impssible for passenger planes to land in Faroe. Not until around 1960, some “crazy†Icelanders started a regular air service between Faroe and Copenhagen. After more than 10 years, when the Icelanders actually made a profit of this route, the Danes decided, it was possible to keep an air service between Faroe and Denmark, kicked the Icelanders out, and put in a Danish airline instead.

 

Keep it the way it is.

 

There are MUCH more complicated problems in the world to deal with like people starving and turd than to worry about us wanting something as ridiculious as independence for Shetland.

That´s what the Faroe islanders were told for 600 years: “Never focus on your own needs, they are not important. Always switch the focus on someone else, because you are not important. Everyone else is more important than you".

The Faroese language was described as “a barbaric mountain dialect†by Danish Scholars. “Proper Danish†had to be taught in schools and preached in the Churches. Obviously God didn´t understand Faroese, because the priests spoke Danish. So strong was the Faroe islanders´ aversion against their own language, that when the Gospel of St. Matthew was first published in the “Faroese dialect†in 1823, it caused a rage in Faroe, that anyone could print the word of God in such a “corrupted low status dialectâ€; it was considered blasphemous. The Faroese rejected it, and kept their Danish bible for another 126 years, until a complete Faroese bible was published in 1949. By then, the Faroe islanders had learned that God understands Faroese just as well as Danish.

 

 

Personally I´m quite happy with the “Crown dependancy status†the Faroes have now. Denmark is a good place to live and work, and I´m happy with my Danish citizenship. But I would definately not want the Faroese internal affairs turned back to a “Shetland-like†status quo. Moving decision making back to Copenhagen would be like switching off the light.

[Evil Inky]

During the war with Iraq, Iran lined up its own people and marched them into minefields to clear the way

During the war with Germany, Britain lined up its own people and marched them into no-man's-land to be mown down by machine gun fire, so we can hardly take the moral high ground.

[Njugle]

@ Dagfinn; Very interesting summary, not something that you ever really hear about in these parts, thanks for that.

[Freyr]

Norway has the benefit of a liberal socialist legacy of government, not to mention around 1000 times the geographical space and therefore capacity and capability to produce exchange value from its resources. This has allowed the governments of the country to gather and spend state funds on internal infrastructure, etc. It now has a largely Administrative and Technological economy made up from a highly skilled workforce. Shetland has neither the history nor the latter attributes. The fishing industry is productive economically because they are not an EU country, however, what effect this will have on the longer term environmental effect and sustainability of the industry we are yet to see. Norway was one of the last countries to give equal rights to women, it has the highest male suicide rate in the world, one of the the highest rates of alcoholism, the highest single person population in the world and one of the lowest birthrates.

 

When it comes to geography Norway is a hugely expensive country to build infrastructure in. For instance most western countries have high speed train lines between their largest cities. One between Oslo and Bergen has just been lightly proposed and is estimated to cost 85 000 million NOK. The Norwegian fishing industry is governed by a strict quota system based on sound science and international cooperation. The main problem today is pirate fishing mainly from Spanish and Russian boats.

 

When it comes to your other statements on the accolades of Norway I have a hard time taking you serious especially since you demand accountability for other debater's statements further down. I will however address them:

Universal suffrage or voting for women was granted in Norway in 1913. At this time Norway was the first independent nation to also grant women the right to run for office. Few countries were earlier. The UK followed with universal suffrage in 1928 (some women were allowed to vote in 1918). Later Norway has marked itself internationally to combat social inequality towards women, particularly in the workplace. So your statement is either highly misinformed or something worse.

The suicide rate has already been addressed and as you can see Norway has a lower suicide rate than countries it would be prudent to compare with.

When it comes to birth rate Norway ranks alongside the other Western countries. Slightly above Sweden, Denmark, UK and other western European countries, but slightly below Iceland.

I was not able to find a statistics on the world rates of alcoholism or singles, but I can say that alcoholism is not regarded as a huge problem here in Norway. However the level of general consumption is brought up from time to time. The articles that I remember reading do not name Norway as having one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. It is however true that the prices of alcohol are very high in Norway even compared to wages. A standard (not the cheapes and not the most expensive) loaf of bread costs 17 NOK while a litre of Absolut Vodka costs 369,90 NOK.

Regarding singles I know people marry later in life than was the case say in the 60s and 70s.

 

Now since the accolades of Norway have been brought into the mix allow me to present some more: There is an International Property Rights Index where Norway ranks first. On the Corruption Perceptions Index Norway is 9 with the UK 12. The Quality-of-life index has Norway at 3 with the UK at 29. Overall Life expectancy is 80.2 in Norway and 79.4 in the UK. And on the Human Development Index Norway is 1 while the UK is 18.

These facts show that Norway and the UK have faired quite similarily in the world. However Norway has chosen differently from the UK in several cases and done quite well, in some cases better. Maybe Shetland could as well. There are several indicators it would.

 

"If we have made mistakes at least we did them ourselves"