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Island's Ferrys and Tunnels

sic tunnel ferry

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40 replies to this topic

#16 crofter

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:12 PM


Like the roads in the rest of Shetland, the ferry between Unst and Fetlar is free. ...


Roads aren't "free" though, are they? We pay car tax. :wink:


We have to pay that in the isles as well. But my point is that there are no toll barriers on the road between you and your local shop.

#17 unlinkedstudent

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:26 PM


Like the roads in the rest of Shetland, the ferry between Unst and Fetlar is free. ...


Roads aren't "free" though, are they? We pay car tax. :wink:


We have to pay that in the isles as well. But my point is that there are no toll barriers on the road between you and your local shop.


I hear what you're saying but that argument hasn't been applied previously across the board, has it? I mean, has Foula got a shop?

#18 Infiltrator

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

Isn't it time Bressay folk stopped subsidising folk travelling to/from the other isles? Fair fares should be priced at a rate per mile or a rate per minute average crossing time, should they not?


I remember seeing some figures a few years ago about how much each vehicle and passenger is subsidised on each of the ferry services, Bressay as you say, was the only service that didn't need to be subsidised - although this was probably nearly 10 years ago now.

Anyone seen more recent figures?

#19 crofter

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:26 PM


Isn't it time Bressay folk stopped subsidising folk travelling to/from the other isles? Fair fares should be priced at a rate per mile or a rate per minute average crossing time, should they not?


I remember seeing some figures a few years ago about how much each vehicle and passenger is subsidised on each of the ferry services, Bressay as you say, was the only service that didn't need to be subsidised - although this was probably nearly 10 years ago now.

Anyone seen more recent figures?


Costs from the review as follows:

Bluemull Sound
Unst & Fetlar
£2,487,617
Yell Sound
Yell
£3,760,569
Yell Sound
Yell, Unst & Fetlar
£3,760,569
Yell Sound & Bluemull Sound
Yell, Unst & Fetlar
£6,248,186
Skerries
Skerries
£1,491,142
Whalsay
Whalsay
£2,788,021
Bressay
Bressay
£1,359,161
Papa Stour
Papa Stour
£595,528
Fair Isle
Fair Isle
£460,286

Bressay ferry costs 1.36 million to run, that needs 135,916 10 pound car/driver fares per year to cover the costs, or about 373 car/driver return journeys per day.

#20 stilldellin

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

So in the comparatively sheltered waters of Bressay Sound why are we not seeing private entrepreneur's starting up a business ferrying all these foot passengers ? Think of all that lines of push bikes lined up at the Bressay slip !

#21 crofter

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

So in the comparatively sheltered waters of Bressay Sound why are we not seeing private entrepreneur's starting up a business ferrying all these foot passengers ? Think of all that lines of push bikes lined up at the Bressay slip !


Well, in addition to replacing the Leirna with a chain ferry, other options still under consideration are -

Option No: 14.9 Externalise service(s)
Brief description: Explore the various permutations to externalise as a whole or in part, or in conjunction with other Council marine services

...

Option No: 14.9 c Contract out entire service

...

Option No: 14.9 e Externalise entire Council Marine function

Option No: 14.9 f Externalise individual routes or combinations of routes

Option No: 14.9 g Hand over responsibility to Scottish Government



#22 ll

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:41 PM

OK so no ferry service cuts then!

Going on costs to run service, the fares needed to run the current level of services on a break even basis, based on 2011 ferry figures are:

Yellsound return fares: Vehicle + Driver £39.62, Passenger £17.04

Whalsay return fares: Vehicle + Driver £49.11, Passenger £21.12

Bressay return fares: Vehicle + Driver £23.63, Passenger £10.16

Skerries SINGLE fares: Vehicle + Driver £216.00, Passenger £178.76



Percentages of full capacity used over the years total available capacity were:

Yellsound: Vehicle 10.7% Passenger 9.3%

Whalsay: Vehicle 33.5% Passenger 13.5%

Bressay: Vehicle 21.6% Passenger 8.8%

Skerries: Vehicle 21.9% Passenger 13.4%

Although ferries are stretched at peak times (which should be priced higher), if these kind of overall usage percentages were quoted for Mareel at this stage in time, it would be shot down in flames.

If Northlink had a service in proportion with this, they would need another 44 ferries and nobody would ever have a problem getting a cabin again! Government subsidy would be getting on for £20m per week though!

#23 Ian_H

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:29 PM

I think that at one time ferry passenger fares were set using a medium distance bus fare as a yardstick – the bus fare Scalloway to Lerwick if I remember right. Same fare applied to all the ro-ro routes to treat them equally. But that was a long while ago, not sure how good my memory may be – and a lot has changed in the intervening years.

#24 crofter

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:14 AM

Too much to even contemplate looking at possably spending over £230 million on tunnels and that only if the geology of the rock is right can it be done.


From 2008:

Councillor Wishart: The study on the Bressay link—to use the preferred, less controversial title—is coming to a conclusion. In fact, I will need to be across in Bressay tonight when the team that has undertaken the study presents its findings to the Bressay community.

The study provides some interesting figures on the future costs of ferries. Over a 60-year period, a ferry will cost about £90 million, whereas a tunnel would cost £32 million and a bridge would cost something in between, at about £40 million or £50 million. A lot of work has gone into the study.

Once the STAG process determines which option is seen to be the best possible solution, we then face the challenge of funding that solution. That is not straightforward. At the moment, the Scottish Government contributes some 50 per cent of the operating costs of the ferries. Perhaps if that sum was added to each year, it could lead to quite a nice capital sum to help with the investment in fixed links. In the longer term, it is difficult to see any other solution for maintaining the population levels, employment and social life in the affected islands.


http://archive.scott...8/tr08-0802.htm

#25 Scorrie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

Perhaps our chums in Holyrood could fund the bridges and then remove the tolls as they did over on Skye?

#26 JustMe

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

Perhaps our chums in Holyrood could fund the bridges and then remove the tolls as they did over on Skye?

When Shetland is saying no to staying in an independent Scotland.......get real!.

#27 MuckleJoannie

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:23 PM

Perhaps our chums in Holyrood could fund the bridges and then remove the tolls as they did over on Skye?


Maybe when we vote in an SNP MSP.

#28 shetlandpeat

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:26 PM

Perhaps our chums in Holyrood could fund the bridges and then remove the tolls as they did over on Skye?

When Shetland is saying no to staying in an independent Scotland.......get real!.


when was that decided?

Anyhow, how much will these tunnels cost

Would bridges not spoil the Islands looks?

How long would you pay the toll for. Keep in mind 2/3rds of the cost goes on the actual build, the rest on corporate stuff.

Folk will still pay similar charges to use them I would think.

#29 crofter

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:23 AM

Anyhow, how much will these tunnels cost


I have already told you how much the estimate is for Bressay on the first page:

Councillor Wishart: The study on the Bressay link—to use the preferred, less controversial title—is coming to a conclusion. In fact, I will need to be across in Bressay tonight when the team that has undertaken the study presents its findings to the Bressay community.

The study provides some interesting figures on the future costs of ferries. Over a 60-year period, a ferry will cost about £90 million, whereas a tunnel would cost £32 million and a bridge would cost something in between, at about £40 million or £50 million. A lot of work has gone into the study.

Once the STAG process determines which option is seen to be the best possible solution, we then face the challenge of funding that solution. That is not straightforward. At the moment, the Scottish Government contributes some 50 per cent of the operating costs of the ferries. Perhaps if that sum was added to each year, it could lead to quite a nice capital sum to help with the investment in fixed links. In the longer term, it is difficult to see any other solution for maintaining the population levels, employment and social life in the affected islands.


http://archive.scott...8/tr08-0802.htm


Would bridges not spoil the Islands looks?


That is much the same as asking if wind turbines are nice to look at. Some will think bridges are beautiful, others won't. But tunnels don't have much visual impact in comparison and are also cheaper to build.

How long would you pay the toll for. Keep in mind 2/3rds of the cost goes on the actual build, the rest on corporate stuff.

Folk will still pay similar charges to use them I would think.


Yes, there would need to be tolls for using the tunnels, but if we had bridges there would be room for a few more trolls...

#30 shetlandpeat

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

[quote][quote]Anyhow, how much will these tunnels cost[/quote]

I have already told you how much the estimate is for Bressay on the first page:

Hmm, 4 years old, what would be todays cost, for one tunnel?

http://archive.scott...8/tr08-0802.htm[/quote]

[quote]Would bridges not spoil the Islands looks?[/quote]

That is much the same as asking if wind turbines are nice to look at. Some will think bridges are beautiful, others won't. But tunnels don't have much visual impact in comparison and are also cheaper to build.

Turbines will serve far more than £30/40/50 million pounds spent on a bridge would.

[quote]How long would you pay the toll for. Keep in mind 2/3rds of the cost goes on the actual build, the rest on corporate stuff.

Folk will still pay similar charges to use them I would think.[/quote]

Yes, there would need to be tolls for using the tunnels, but if we had bridges there would be room for a few more trolls...[/quote]

You are good, give yoursel a shiny.

So, going on the costs of the ferry, would it be right in saying that you will be paying for at least 30 years?

You will still need a ferry though, there are prohibited items that cannot use tunnels. Also, a bus service. The need for a ferry will still remain, in case of tunnel closure.

I wonder who will manage that? The council I would suppose.





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