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#41 hjasga

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 10:33 AM

 

Nicola Sturgeon has announced a campaign to get the English to vote to stay in the EU. Yet she has previously stated that if England ''rips'' Scotland out of the EU this would trigger the new independence referendum  she wants..So surely she should be campaigning for the English to vote to leave the EU  not to stay in.  http://www.heraldsco...English_voters/

 

That's a typical "top position" politician for you, less integrity than a snake oil salesman.

 

How does that demonstrate a lack of integrity? She supports the EU and Scotland's continued membership of it. The only certain way to secure that is to vote to Remain on June 23rd. Anything after that is extremely unpredictable, and I expect being inside the UK and outside the EU is 'worst case' for many SNP supporters. 



#42 whalsa

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 10:42 AM

So an "out" vote by the UK would supposedly give the SNP a mandate for Independence.. presumably only if the overall vote in Scotland is "in"? So then following that logic, if Britain votes to stay "in" or if Britain votes "out" and the SNP try to use this for Scotland to leave and stay "in" but in either case Shetland votes "out" we would have a legitimate claim to having our own referendum about changing our status either with the UK or with an independent Scotland.

If Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU against it's will (if that is indeed the will of the public) then it follows that Shetland should not be forced to remain in if we want out. 


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#43 Da Burra Shop

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 10:59 AM

So an "out" vote by the UK would supposedly give the SNP a mandate for Independence.. presumably only if the overall vote in Scotland is "in"? So then following that logic, if Britain votes to stay "in" or if Britain votes "out" and the SNP try to use this for Scotland to leave and stay "in" but in either case Shetland votes "out" we would have a legitimate claim to having our own referendum about changing our status either with the UK or with an independent Scotland.

If Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU against it's will (if that is indeed the will of the public) then it follows that Shetland should not be forced to remain in if we want out. 

You're forgetting that self determination only extends as far north as Caithness and could well move further south depending on how the good people of Wick vote.



#44 hjasga

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 03:04 PM

So an "out" vote by the UK would supposedly give the SNP a mandate for Independence.. presumably only if the overall vote in Scotland is "in"? So then following that logic, if Britain votes to stay "in" or if Britain votes "out" and the SNP try to use this for Scotland to leave and stay "in" but in either case Shetland votes "out" we would have a legitimate claim to having our own referendum about changing our status either with the UK or with an independent Scotland.

If Scotland should not be dragged out of the EU against it's will (if that is indeed the will of the public) then it follows that Shetland should not be forced to remain in if we want out. 

 

It wouldn't be a mandate for independence in and of itself, but I'd support the argument that it would be sufficient change of circumstance to justify another referendum on the matter. 

 

And in the circumstances you set out I would equally support a referendum for Shetland, albeit one in which I expect we would vote in differing ways. 



#45 Da Burra Shop

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 04:15 PM

"It wouldn't be a mandate for independence in and of itself, but I'd support the argument that it would be sufficient change of circumstance to justify another referendum on the matter. 

 

 

And in the circumstances you set out I would equally support a referendum for Shetland, albeit one in which I expect we would vote in differing ways."

 

At least you recognise the right to self determination extending further north than the Pentland firth, and that is all that wir Shetland is asking for. So why are the snp so afraid of the idea?



#46 hjasga

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 04:39 PM

"It wouldn't be a mandate for independence in and of itself, but I'd support the argument that it would be sufficient change of circumstance to justify another referendum on the matter. 

 

 

And in the circumstances you set out I would equally support a referendum for Shetland, albeit one in which I expect we would vote in differing ways."

 

At least you recognise the right to self determination extending further north than the Pentland firth, and that is all that wir Shetland is asking for. So why are the snp so afraid of the idea?

I don't see them as "afraid". I just don't think they see it as credible. The creation of Wir Shetland perhaps gives it more credibility but I don't think it would be seen seriously unless perhaps in the circumstances Whalsa outlines - or more likely once Shetlanders elected a pro-autonomy representative to either Parliament. To date I don't see what those outside of Shetland could look at as evidence of any significant level of support for the idea. 



#47 Wheelsup

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 06:40 PM

it would seem that to stay in the EU you vote SNP at the Scottish Elections?

 

I see a split developing there, unless the SNP  are prepared to listen to the electorate, and face the possibility the majority might not agree with staying in.

Or is the lady not for turning?



#48 Ghostrider

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 10:44 PM

 

 

Nicola Sturgeon has announced a campaign to get the English to vote to stay in the EU. Yet she has previously stated that if England ''rips'' Scotland out of the EU this would trigger the new independence referendum  she wants..So surely she should be campaigning for the English to vote to leave the EU  not to stay in.  http://www.heraldsco...English_voters/

 

That's a typical "top position" politician for you, less integrity than a snake oil salesman.

 

How does that demonstrate a lack of integrity? She supports the EU and Scotland's continued membership of it. The only certain way to secure that is to vote to Remain on June 23rd. Anything after that is extremely unpredictable, and I expect being inside the UK and outside the EU is 'worst case' for many SNP supporters. 

 

 

Exactly what it says in the original quote.

 

Here we have the figurehead of the Scottish pro-independence party and currently chief politician in Scotland, who fully stood behind the "Yes" vote camp in a Scottish referendum barely 18 months ago, speaking against the one thing which currently has a realistic chance of forcing another referendum and winning it.

 

As you say yourself, being within the UK but out of the EU is probably many independence supporters worst nightmare, so why not let it happen and then capitalise on that mood to force a fresh referendum in the hope that enough skeptics can be won over by voting time to make the difference and achive a "Yes" win?

 

How can suddenly binning that chance of independence that they were so fanatical about so recently, to keep Scotland in the EU be seen as having integrity?

 

Does Holyrood's "finest" really value Scotland's continued EU membership so much more highly than disconnecting themselves ASAP from the "auld enemy"? As that's what this looks like with Sturgeon's current witterings, and leaves you wondering just how "pro-independence" the SNP really are.


Edited by Ghostrider, 22 February 2016 - 10:48 PM.

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#49 hjasga

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 11:12 PM

All very nice on paper but back here in the real world I don't think any party leader would be so feckless. Why on Earth do something you don't want to do in the vain hope that it leads to something you would like happening? It's very far from guaranteed things would play out like that, and as such would be completely counterintuitive. What you're suggesting would be an approach of far less integrity than simply saying, "I am pro-EU and therefore I hope people will vote to stay". 

 

Most independence supporters - however some Unionists might like to pain them - do not generally wish to see Scotland made independent against the democratic will of its people. Presumably Sturgeon and co feel that Scotland will eventually become an independent nation whatever the outcome in June. 


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#50 Ghostrider

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:26 AM

^ Like I said, clearly Scotland becoming an independent nation seems now to be quite a long way down Sturgeon's (and the SNP's?) Christmas List, given that she's apparently taking the stance that Scotland is going to be joined to England for the foreseeble future, so she needs to try and influence them on the basis that what they do will affect us. I wonder if its tumbled to the dyed in the wool "Flooer o' Scoatlan" types who blindly backed her to the hilt yet, and if they are aware of this sudden, silent  and dramatic policy change, and what they feel about being "sold out" if they are.

 

The only fecklessness I see going on is a weak fair weather "leader" who cares not one jot about principles and backs whatever is the cushiest for her in the present.

 

If she were so disconnected from the UK as believe Scottish independence was the only way, she'd not give a flying fig how the rest of the UK voted, and have kept right out of it - whatever the result was it was going to be a "win" for her anyway. If the UK votes to stay in, it all becomes a moot point as nothing has changed, and if they vote to get out, she's handed on a plate all the ammo she needs, if she used it astutely, to get that Scottish independence she "says" she desperately wants.

 

I'm just hoping that the Scottish portion of the EU vote shows massive support to get out - then the Nats and all their best laid plans based on nothing more concrete than assumptions are totally washed up.


Edited by Ghostrider, 23 February 2016 - 12:29 AM.

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#51 Redrobbie99

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 07:08 AM

The pro EU lobby continually tell us how good being in the EU is for trade yet sanctions imposed by the EU on the Russian federation in recent years have had a devastating effect on many UK businesses including many in the  Shetland fish industry .Norway, Iceland,Greenland  and the Faroes have been unaffected as they are not in the EU .https://www.pressand...ng-russian-ban/


Edited by Redrobbie99, 23 February 2016 - 07:09 AM.

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#52 hjasga

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:48 AM

^ Like I said, clearly Scotland becoming an independent nation seems now to be quite a long way down Sturgeon's (and the SNP's?) Christmas List, given that she's apparently taking the stance that Scotland is going to be joined to England for the foreseeble future, so she needs to try and influence them on the basis that what they do will affect us. I wonder if its tumbled to the dyed in the wool "Flooer o' Scoatlan" types who blindly backed her to the hilt yet, and if they are aware of this sudden, silent  and dramatic policy change, and what they feel about being "sold out" if they are.

 

The only fecklessness I see going on is a weak fair weather "leader" who cares not one jot about principles and backs whatever is the cushiest for her in the present.

 

If she were so disconnected from the UK as believe Scottish independence was the only way, she'd not give a flying fig how the rest of the UK voted, and have kept right out of it - whatever the result was it was going to be a "win" for her anyway. If the UK votes to stay in, it all becomes a moot point as nothing has changed, and if they vote to get out, she's handed on a plate all the ammo she needs, if she used it astutely, to get that Scottish independence she "says" she desperately wants.

 

I'm just hoping that the Scottish portion of the EU vote shows massive support to get out - then the Nats and all their best laid plans based on nothing more concrete than assumptions are totally washed up.

 

As is so often the case when we meet in threads, I simply cannot get around to your way of thinking. I know a lot of people like to make out otherwise, but Sturgeon evidently does care about Scotland and want what she feels is best for it. In this case, being out of the EU is not what she considers best, whatever its possible implications in the longer term goal for independence. It's all a nice idea in sandbox thinking but the real world practicalities are rather different - independence for Scotland is not within her purview, it requires not only on the UK Government recognising another referendum but on that referendum going as independence supporters hope it would. It is madness, in my view, that people should be expected to take such a massive gamble or be accused of lacking integrity. It just doesn't follow logic. 



#53 Roachmill

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:56 AM

I'm just hoping that the Scottish portion of the EU vote shows massive support to get out

 

As do most UKIP voters. It's a bit of a given. But don't let that stop some good old SNP bashing.



#54 Redrobbie99

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 05:17 PM

Thanks to EU rules many UK company's have moved to eastern Europe to ''cut costs'' bigger profits more like. How is that good for the UK ?.Here is one example .  http://www.mirror.co...-to-move-101746 and another http://www.telegraph...for-Poland.html


Edited by Redrobbie99, 23 February 2016 - 05:42 PM.


#55 Redrobbie99

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 05:48 PM

Its now clear why Nicola Sturgeon is supporting David Cameron looks like they have a deal going on .http://www.heraldsco...finally_agreed/



#56 Gorgonzola Butt-cheese

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 07:59 PM

Can you vote for Juncker?
Can you vote for Tusk?
Can you vote for Shultz? 

 

The only questions that matter, as so eloquently put by Tony Benn:

1. What power have you got?
2. Where did you get it from?
3. In whose interests do you exercise it?
4. To whom are you accountable?
5. How can we get rid of you?

The last is of paramount importance, and particularly when the EU fails to address this last point so badly - the European Commission, take note.


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#57 Colin

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 07:42 AM

What a load of !"£$%^&*

 

http://www.shetnews....haic-and-racist

 

Why not just ask the EU if they want us to leave?????


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#58 Scorrie

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 08:37 AM

......

 

Most independence supporters - however some Unionists might like to pain them - do not generally wish to see Scotland made independent against the democratic will of its people. ......

 

Given the amount of vicious bile, accusations of being 'traitors' and 'feart' - and downright aggression - shown by a not unsubstantial amount of Indy supporters after the referendum votes were counted, I could take you to task on that portion of your post, Hjasga.......  :thmbsup

 

Anyway, Ms Urquhart needs to look up the meaning of 'ethnicity'. Playing the race and ethnic card in this scenario is a sure sign of someone with no real ammo in their locker.


Edited by Scorrie, 29 February 2016 - 08:42 AM.

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#59 whalsa

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 09:39 AM

^^^ Exactly, since when was "EU citizen" an ethnicity? Why should anyone who is not a British national have a say in whether the country leaves or not? IF leaving was good for the UK but bad for the EU (or even a particular EU country) could you trust those EU citizens to vote for what is best for the UK or what is best for their native country? 

Utter drivel from the MSP. The race card is whipped out far too often nowadays. 

 



#60 shetlandtrader

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 10:03 AM

anybody who is not a uk citizen is guaranteed to vote to stay in she is clearly just looking for free votes for here cause