Jump to content

  • Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with LinkedIn Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Photo

Less than honest police

police law court offence justice

  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 audi-ya-do

audi-ya-do

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 17 November 2017 - 06:52 PM

After an incident this year. I was just wondering whether any one else out there has had dealings with the police where the police have, how shall I put it, been less than honest. I know things I said to the police had bits added and removed to make me look worse. Also the witness who was with me had the same done to them too. Obviously I won't mention names or what the case was. Also I am not looking for sympathy or support merely an interest in others opinions. This has probably damaged my trust in the police beyond repair. I know I have not come forward with information, when the police were requesting help, since this happened to me. Just wondering if anyone else has had the same experience in Shetland.


  • fionajohn likes this

#2 fionajohn

fionajohn

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 364 posts

Posted 17 November 2017 - 08:43 PM

After an incident this year. I was just wondering whether any one else out there has had dealings with the police where the police have, how shall I put it, been less than honest. I know things I said to the police had bits added and removed to make me look worse. Also the witness who was with me had the same done to them too. Obviously I won't mention names or what the case was. Also I am not looking for sympathy or support merely an interest in others opinions. This has probably damaged my trust in the police beyond repair. I know I have not come forward with information, when the police were requesting help, since this happened to me. Just wondering if anyone else has had the same experience in Shetland.

SO WHATS NEW    we live in a controll society 



#3 Ghostrider

Ghostrider

    1crankymofo

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8651 posts

Posted 17 November 2017 - 08:50 PM

There's always been certain 'econonies' made with the truth with them, its not begun today.

 

Years back, early 90's I think it was, a bike of mine was involved in a wreck when a car pulled out of a carpark and layby in to the face of traffic. Their evidence gathering was totally one sided and biased, with anything implicating the car driver ignored, and the 'sketch' submitted to the Court as evidence illustrating the scene or where everything came to rest, heavily 'modified' compared to fixed features on the ground and the measurements they'd taken relative to them. Unfortunately the guy who was on my bike at the time elected to just take the hit to get it over and done with, or it could well have ended up as a very colourful day in Court.

 

More recently, while discussing a non-criminal enquiry, I was asked whether or not I agreed to them undertaking a certain action, which I agreed to as it seemed neither here nor there, and largely pointless not to. Unfortunately, for whatever reason I soon discovered that the way they'd sold it to me was the heavily over abbreviated and heavily over simplified version, and the reality was much more complex and objectionable, which I'd definitely not have agreed to had they divulged exactly what it was.

 

They were easy going, friendly and helpful otherwise, so why they chose to try and skip past that bit as quickly as possible letting me know as little as possible, I dunno. But in doing so, trust and goodwill, not that there was much of that anyway, definitely took a hit. I don't respond well to feeling like I have been conned in to agreeing to something I wouldn't have otherwise.


Edited by Ghostrider, 17 November 2017 - 08:52 PM.


#4 Sukibind

Sukibind

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:29 PM

I think our Police are wonderful. The majority are ordinary people who want to do some good in the community. How would you like it if in your job you were continually sworn and spat at, have drunks spewing over you and trying to fight with you. Being called all manner of names and whenever you are sent to an address where there has been a ‘disturbance’ have the worry that someone will try to kill you with a gun, knife, explosives. Remember that all police are someones son, daughter, husband or wife. In times of trouble they are the most caring and helpful people you could hope to meet. I think this pathetic ‘less than honest’ post says more about the poster, than their whinge about the police.
  • panrider913 likes this

#5 town

town

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 18 November 2017 - 10:04 PM

Haven't you come across any of the ones who are not in your majority description?

I know they do a sterling job but they do not take you seriously when you are telling the truth, believing liars, and that does not bode well with me with how they treat the honest person.


Edited by town, 18 November 2017 - 10:08 PM.


#6 Ghostrider

Ghostrider

    1crankymofo

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8651 posts

Posted 18 November 2017 - 10:26 PM

@Sukibind

 

Trust and respect have to be earned, they're nobody's by right just because they manage to secure any particular job.

 

The "nasty" side of the job is no secret, they knew about it when they signed up, or if they didn't I'm pretty sure it would have been shown to them durng their training and probationary period, when they could have got out again relatvely quickly and easily. It goes with the job, just the same as anyone joining the military knows (or if they don't, they damn well should) that the odds they'll come home to Mummy in a plywood box is much higher than everyone else's.

 

The Police need to do what they need to do to control situations and minimise their negativity when dealing with the "nasty" side of the job, there's no real dispute there. However when dealing with perfectly calm law-abiding people in perfectly calm situations, or their aftermath, they need to be fully forthcoming and completely transparent, or you get what the OP describes, a withdrawal of trust and co-operation from the very people the Police rely on to help them do their job as well as it can be done.

 

In an ideal world it would be nice to be able to trust and respect the Police implicity at all times, but as long as there are occurances where what people have said, or material facts are misrepresented in any way by the Police, or the full consequences of something they are requesting of someone aren't made crystal clear, thats just not going to be possible. Folk simply won't trust, respect or cooperate when they feel blame was inappropriately allocated, or folk have become envageled in something they really didn't want any part of, just because the Police contribution to it, for whatever reason, was inaccurate/incomplete.

 

Yes, I know they're on a pretty difficult number, they're under the same pressure of time constraints as every other job to get the work done and bring in results, and there's always the temptation to cut corners where they can be cut, just as the rest of us have. In their position though, they do not have anything like the leeway most others have, and I think maybe that minimal leeway position has been lost sight of by some.

 

After 40+ years of mainly casual encounters with the Police, I'm afraid as a result my only position these days is 'Nope, saw nowt, heard nowt, did nowt, and won't be calling anything in, regardless what it is'.


Edited by Ghostrider, 18 November 2017 - 10:36 PM.


#7 audi-ya-do

audi-ya-do

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:47 AM

   Well sukibind you obviously missed the point. I don't say ALL police are like this. But evidence was changed in my case, I know because I was there when the alleged statement was made, what they claim I said I never did. I then find out later on that one of the key witness statements was altered too, with things added and removed, I believe this because the same officers did exactly this to me. If other people on here, and elsewhere, have had similar experiences then this shows it's not a one off (Check out YouTube for other instances). Also do a search for Ali Dizaei and infamously Timothy Evans. The police do sometimes determine guilt before a court decides, and slant evidence accordingly. All the police are meant to do is gather evidence, in an unbiased manner, to present to the Fiscal or CPS if south of the border, for them to deem if there is a case.

 

   What worries me is that if this happens more often than people suspect, which it probably does, then the damage to the police is immense. As stated in the original post, I can't bring myself to talk to the police now, there is just no trust there. About four months ago I witnessed a less than safe driving manoeuvre where a motorist almost knocked a cyclist off their bike. A few days later police were appealing for witnesses, but with what I feel right now I couldn't come forward. This is a case where just a year ago I would have. The witness in my case feels the same right now too. That's two people now unwilling to give information or help to the police.

 

   I was in a uniform myself when I was younger and agree with ghostridder, you get a chance to back out early if you find it's not for you. It was an honour for me to to do my job when in uniform, and took the job very seriously. Also it still looks like too many of the wrong type of people are recruited to the police, psychologically. 

 

   Yes there are bad parts to the job, traffic duty, drunk duty, etc, etc. This however, in no way gives certain officers, carte blanche to do what they like. It is after all the job they chose knowing the things that may happen, and the routine of the work.

 

   Hopefully, Sukibind, you won't ever have to feel what it is like to be on the wrong end of a police investigation. Truly I mean that, it is a horrible feeling knowing that you are being stitched up like a Saville row suit, and not being able to do anything about it. This has been one of the worst experiences of my life. But here's the thing, like you, I never thought this would happen to me either. So if you think this can't happen to you, it can. I really just hope it doesn't. 


Edited by audi-ya-do, 19 November 2017 - 05:48 AM.

  • Suffererof1crankymofo and Mr.Brown like this

#8 mikeyboy

mikeyboy

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 324 posts

Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:00 AM

This is why you have to get any dealings you have with the police on your phone or at least in front of other witnesses. A constables word will always be taken over yours in court unless you can suddenly magic up some video of your phone.


Edited by mikeyboy, 19 November 2017 - 10:00 AM.


#9 Sukibind

Sukibind

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 19 November 2017 - 08:53 PM

I was always under the impression that your statement was written as you talked, you read it, and signed it as a true copy of what you had said, any and every alteration must be initialled by you. Not quite sure how that can be tampered with.

#10 Ghostrider

Ghostrider

    1crankymofo

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8651 posts

Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:37 PM

^ Its seldom ever a word by word record, as often as not its an abbreviated version, covering all (in their mind) the salient points made. In my experience, which admittedly isn't much, its usually near enough that its neither worth kicking off over or refusing to sign off on. If there is something and you ask for alterations/additions, they're usually fine about it.

 

The trouble starts when the information from statement(s) is transferred in to other 'records' and 'reoprts', as its very easy to tell numerous different stories from any gven statement, depending on the level(s) of cherry picking, overstating/understating employed. That habit is by no means exclusive to the Police, its endemic across most public services - over the years I have read some real elaborate and colourful fairy stories put about by numerous council departments, medical workers etc, whether for reasons of incompetence, bias, vindictiveness, pre-conceived conslusions, laziness etc, I couldn't possibly comment.

 

It should never happen, but its inevitable it does in local Government and public health provision given the chimps and gorillas employed in some posts by them. The police however are at a whole different level to those doofuses though, simply due to the nature and consequences of their work, and need to be seen to be operating at a far superior level of competence and with the utmost responsibility.

 

I'm not denying for one moment that there aren't many extremely concientious and dedicated coppers out there taking their job with the seriousness it deserves, doing their best and going the extra mile frequently. However just one less than capable/competent one undoes the good of many, as the distrust and withdrawal of co-operation doesn't get directed at the problem one, but at the uniform and what it represents. One bad apple ruins the whole barrel, a chain is only as good as its weakest link and all that....You meet one dodgy or useless copper, you go from expecting a certain level of service from the uniform, to only expecting everyone in that uniform to provide as dodgy/useless a service as the one you've encountered, until/unless they individually one by one prove otherwise.



#11 Suffererof1crankymofo

Suffererof1crankymofo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 541 posts

Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:52 PM

I was always under the impression that your statement was written as you talked, you read it, and signed it as a true copy of what you had said, any and every alteration must be initialled by you. Not quite sure how that can be tampered with.

You can do a subject data request.  It's not just statements that get relied upon, it's the officers' note books too.  I've worked for both the BTP (in a CJU) and also for a firm of solicitors specialising in complaints against the police and prison service; the poll tax riots involved several cases of police misconduct.  Taped interviews result in the tapes being copied in a certain way, yet I've seen tapes labelled incorrectly, lost, etc.  There's good cops and bad cops, but with procedures also not being adhered to or misconstrued and it's the old occasional bad apple giving a bad impression of the rest.



#12 audi-ya-do

audi-ya-do

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:00 AM

 How do you do a "Subject data request"? Suffererof1crankymofo. I'd be very interested in seeing the original paperwork of my case.

 

   Ghostrider is right, my one experience of a bad copper shouldn't jade my view of the numerous good ones. I have friends and relatives in the police force and hope and trust they behave better. But it does cause how do you know who you are dealing with until it's too late. So I simply have to mistrust them all, to try to be safe.

 

    Sukibind, I don't want to pick on you and appreciate someone inputting another side to the discussion, but you obviously have never had dealings with the police against you. Also the way the justice system works is very slanted against those who feel innocent. If you go guilty early, even if you feel you are not, you get a lighter sentence. If you go not guilty and are then found guilty you tend to get the maximum sentence available.

 

   Try this, made up scenario: You are driving on your own and approach a traffic island, you look right- no traffic, you look left nothing of concern, look right again still no traffic. You enter onto the the roundabout and just as you do a car drives at speed onto the island from the next entrance. Your car hits them broadside. The police are called. By the time the police arrive both the driver of the other vehicle and their passenger are saying you raced onto the island and hit them.  The police agree with them and you are charged with "driving without due care and attention". Do you 1) Take a guilty plea straight away, even though you know you aren't. Or 2) Go not guilty and are found guilty at trial (Even though you are innocent) 

   1) Will probably land you 3 points and a couple hundred pound fine. 2) Will likely result in 7 to 9 points and and over a thousand pound fine. What would you choose?

   Like I said before, if you don't think you could land on the wrong side of the police, it's as easy as the scenario above and totally outwith your control.


Edited by audi-ya-do, 20 November 2017 - 06:02 AM.


#13 town

town

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:16 AM

Audi-ya-do - write to Mr Tulloch at Lerwick Police and they will send you a form to complete, although is far better to bypass them,  for you to write to Grampian Police Headquarters, Queen Street, Aberdeen to request this form as you require to send the form back there with your £10 payment.  I am sure one time I printed the form off online too, but better to get it from Grampian Police as required to be sent back there.



#14 town

town

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:20 AM

Sukibind - you sound like you are a new female recruit to the police force as what you have said is how things should be, if you are then do not follow to how they work and do things right or confront the illegal dealings of your colleagues, not that you would if you were in the police force from experiences of illegal dealings from police, but if you are not in police and find out that you have dealings with the police and they take down a statement, you will find out that this is not the case of what they do - they say over and over to you,  I am not writing that and competely p... you off, when you are telling them the truth of how it is,  do not let you read the statement and you have to just end up signing it and then you have years of contacting police and what they end up doing illegally to you with their absolute hate crime against you for just telling the absolute whole truth as they will just not treat the honest person well as they work to "protect and serve those who have done wrong" - that is my perception of police, and I can tell you that them not dealing with it and how they treat the honest person makes live absolute hell indeed. 

 

Audi -ya-do-  When you have come to the end of your tether with police not dealing with things legally and have told them that you are going to document this and their names on Shetlink because them not dealing with things legally, confirming they are extremely happy with their illegal behaviors they have done against the honest person then you are justified to enter their names as they have confirmed that they are extremely happy with all they have done and stand by it and will do precisely the very same thing to another innocent person who has told them the absolute gods honest truth.



#15 town

town

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:20 PM

Audi-ya-do - in google - type: how to get a copy of my police records.

then, click on: get a copy of your police records in scotland-mygov.scot.

click on police scotland.

click on subject access request form (PDF) = this is the form you require to complete and enclose £10 payment and post to:

 

Data Protection Central Processing Unit,

Information Management Unit,

Police Scotland, 

Queen Street,

Aberdeen.

AB10 1ZA.

 

I could get a job in the police and would straight away be going to did up the drugs outside, but cannot tell police where as currently police protect and serve those who do wrong and if I was in the police would have a different twisted mindset obviously, if conformed to working as they presently do in Shetland Police,  as legal in shetland to them to at all times protect and serve those who have done wrong, as is the case every single time I have had contact with police.


Edited by town, 20 November 2017 - 02:39 PM.


#16 town

town

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:23 PM

With what the police have and are doing to me and all for me telling them the gods honest truth,  they would have been better off shooting me dead, that would have been the kindest thing they could ever have done or do.



#17 audi-ya-do

audi-ya-do

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:04 AM

   I feel for you town. The last nine months found me unable to sleep properly, eat properly and think clearly. Like I said in an earlier post this has probably been my worst year in my life. All because two useless, dishonest police wanted to get Brownie points against the "bad man". Just like you I feel this isn't the polices' decision to make, they should approach all cases in an unbiased manner and merely pass that collected, truthful, evidence on to the PF. 

 

   Hang in there though, I know it's tough. My suggestion is what I am thinking of, take all your hurt and pain then, be constructive. I shall be watching both of the police officers and accusers movements closely and legally, the minute they slip up no matter how small I shall be all over it like stink on do-do. I also intend to get dash cams and hope to capture them that way too. To me two can play the game I've been through.

 

   I know you are hurting, I really do, but there are other ways to do things. Bet you won't ever look at the police the same way will you? My advice to everyone is to withdraw community support for the police until they get to the bottom of corruption and dishonesty that seems so prevalent, they are OUR servants after all and paid for by us.