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Inter Isle ferries

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#1 boby2013

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 09:48 AM

Inter-Island ferry services
 
It’s sad Scottish government don’t include in budget funds for inter-island ferries, as its live line to people in islands, but same time cheaper options must be looked at operate service. and for 15m per year from Scottish office and 7.5m toped up by Sic per year it’s not good value for monies. thus again option Sic must look at is following
 
A put out to tender to professional operator come in with vessels operate service. Cut costs 
B give it to Scottish government to run it,
 
ZetTrans do wonderful job but few in head of    ever been to sea for practical experiences for other transport needs well Shetland is north to south east to west for buses this one hour job arrange bus time table but we have no bus station in lerwick?, aviation well airline operator looks after that, so why we Require  ZetTrans?  just say we have transport advisers?
 
This one saving could be done by SIC yearly. one cannot compare western islands as they never had oil revenues like Orkney Shetlands good days have been when big monies were there SIC don’t think tunnels all this back then for future,good old days when they were investing in south Africa, were oil funds gone left 200m? can anyone see this material how was spent ? this as belonged to people of Shetland. main roads sullomvoe  to lerwick was oil company paid most of it, so it makes wonder why SIC have so much power over this funds, Scottish government no way fools they can see what’s happening, Sic must Pull in belt and not cut small schools but cut their own spending on flights travel adviser departments as end day standard are under question why there really there for, SIC should not operate any service put to tender to save funds in interest of Shetland people  Sic must change minds let private operators on isles let them get on with job,
 


#2 Kavi Ugl

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 12:41 PM

Listening to Radio Shetland last night what Derek McKay was literally saying is, if Tavish Scott and Liam McArthur will come and bow before me in my office I'll give you ferry funding.

 

Derek McKay has been told for 3 years that the ferries need more funding, he doesn't need Tavish and Liam "to come to my office" to tell him that so what he's doing is simply an egotistical power trip.  He's playing politics.

 

We have hit a new low in our relationship with Edinburgh and as the man said, "it just isn't funny anymore".

 

Tavish was right, the SNP Scottish Government doesn't like Shetland and Orkney because we didn't vote for them.  Sadly, the truth of those words is a lot, lot darker than how it's written on a website or said on a radio.

 

And they're going to continue twisting the financial knife in the hope that we'll surrender and give them control of the ferries and also use up the oil reserves.

 

I saw a comment on the Shetland News Facebook page which also hits the nail on the head "They are starving Councils of funding to bankrupt them and take them over as part of a strategy of centralisation".
 

It's time for the SIC to open talks with London with the aim of Shetland becoming a Crown Dependency.

 

Now.


Edited by Kavi Ugl, 15 December 2017 - 12:53 PM.

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#3 Capeesh

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:23 PM

That's politics I'm afraid, because the SNP no longer hold a majority the budget has turned into a negotiation, it'll only get passed with the support of another party. We want more cash to pay for ferries, the SNP want their budget passed.
Looks like the only stumbling block is an assurance that Tavish and Liam will back the budget.
The same horse trading is happening day in and day out in every democracy in the world.

Edited by Capeesh, 15 December 2017 - 06:36 PM.


#4 Capeesh

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:50 AM

The Scottish government need just 3 votes from other parties/independents to pass their budget, in the chamber there are:-
Total seats - 129
SNP - 62
Con - 31
Lab - 22
Green - 6
LibDem - 5
Independents - 2
As was the case in the last budget the Greens have a list of demands to guarantee their support in this budget which will obviously take money away from a very limited and ever decreasing pot.
This system of horse trading and backroom deals is the norm in every parliament in every democracy in the world when other people/parties hold the balance of power.

#5 Wheelsup

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 10:28 AM

This is going to be a tricky one. If people feel they are in danger of paying more tax than in England, then anyone supporting this budget might find themselves punished at the next election.

#6 Ghostrider

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 01:26 AM

There's two games at play with Holyrood, firstly, regardless of their protestations and overtures to the contrary, the Scottish establishment do not, never have, and probably never will in the next few centuries at least, consider Orkney & Shetland as a "true" part of Scotland, any more than many Orcadians and Shetlanders consider themselves 'Scottish' - We are very much the reluctant and mostly ignored foster child which they don't want, but their greed won't let them let go of. Just like you sometimes see (albeit not so often these days) a family with kids of their own, but one or more foster kids as well, who are very obvious by the fact they wear the hand me downs, while the biological children are always dressed in the new stuff - The foster ones are only where they are because the fosterers get an allowance paid for them, they're a commodity, and commodities only justify the minimum investment to ensure they continue to yield the maximum payout. We're a commodity in the same way to the Scottish political establishment, and right now they're conducting an experiment in just how low they can let their investment go without affecting the returns on it they get from us.

 

Secondly, we're sitting on a little bit of money, and nobody in Holyrood is going to take pity on us and send momey here when it serves their interests better to throw it around as bribes for votes in the central belt, as that's where the numbers are that matter as to whether they stay on their gravy train or not, it doesn't matter how we vote, as in the bigger picture our influence whoever we vote in is minimal, the support the local SNP branch was getting from Head Office and the quality of candidates they've put forward in both Scottish and national elections in the recent past is proof enough that they really don't care what happens here.

 

We're on our own to sink, we can choose between spending our reserves to plug the gap in Government funding either quickly or slowly, but until its all spent there will be no compassion or fairness coming this way out of Holyrood, only empty promises and flowery talking, and any compassion even then will only come if we go cap in hand and do a lot of begging. Or we can take on Holyrood at their own game, with the right research, planning and tactics any Council, including this one, could, back Holyrood in to a corner where they had to choose between honouring their obligations to the entire populations in a reasonable and fair manner, or face the real prospect of being painted so black their chances of holding on to power were all but wiped out. That unfortunately seems to be the last thing on our lot's mind though, given that the only reported reaction from our great white leader to yet another funding reduction was to scuttle away with his tail between his legs muttering about "more cutbacks to keep within the Edinburgh enforced budget". What happened to fighting for our fair share? I doesn't need much midder wit to know that if you just meekly and submissive accept whatever you're offered, you're very liable to be offered even less next time round - and we are, time and time again. Yet those on top of teh ttem here let it happen over and over again. Things will get worse regardless, but they'd get worse a whole lot more slowly if Edinburgh were a bit nervous of just what sort of broadside was about to be unleashed on them from these northern wastelands unless they sent enough to keep our protestations down to a dull roar.

 

'Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat the same mistakes' or something like that is how the adage goes - History tells us that between 1500 and 1900 we were lorded over by the Scottish establishment who systematically ground both the place and the people in to the ground by creaming off almost all of the lion's share in the better times and ignoring folk's needs in the harder ones. History aso tells us that in the 15 years or so since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree in the 100+ years we've managed to largely stay out from under their thumb.....The thumb is now well and truly back, and if you want to have a general idea of how the remainder of this century will unfold politically, go check your history for the period 1600-1900 and the attitude of those who held power then, as the immediate future will be the same MO, only adapted to suit modern society and lifestyles.

 

The Council themselves could do much to put their own house in order as well, which would minimise the need for cuts in the actual service delivery. They're sitting on a grossly bloated over-complicated management system, and using many equally over complicated and un-necessary management and admin procedures and systems, not to mention the slew of totally un-necessary 'non-job' positons, all of which are drawing salaries and incurring costs needlessly. The place would run as well, probably better in fact, if all the desk bound elements between the elected members and the front line staff were completely redesigned and streamlined with an emphasis on minimalisation, effectiveness and efficiency, and yield a scarily surprising amount in savings, but there seems no stomach within the organsation to even explore that avenue.


Edited by Ghostrider, 17 December 2017 - 01:51 AM.

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#7 Capeesh

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:34 PM

What the Scottish Lairds did to Shetland was being done all over Scotland, but the Scottish establishment were and are still more likely to be found in the palace of Westminster than in Holyrood.

Edited by Capeesh, 17 December 2017 - 05:45 PM.

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#8 borderhole24

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 08:24 PM

There's two games at play with Holyrood, firstly, regardless of their protestations and overtures to the contrary, the Scottish establishment do not, never have, and probably never will in the next few centuries at least, consider Orkney & Shetland as a "true" part of Scotland, any more than many Orcadians and Shetlanders consider themselves 'Scottish' - We are very much the reluctant and mostly ignored foster child which they don't want, but their greed won't let them let go of. Just like you sometimes see (albeit not so often these days) a family with kids of their own, but one or more foster kids as well, who are very obvious by the fact they wear the hand me downs, while the biological children are always dressed in the new stuff - The foster ones are only where they are because the fosterers get an allowance paid for them, they're a commodity, and commodities only justify the minimum investment to ensure they continue to yield the maximum payout. We're a commodity in the same way to the Scottish political establishment, and right now they're conducting an experiment in just how low they can let their investment go without affecting the returns on it they get from us.

 

Secondly, we're sitting on a little bit of money, and nobody in Holyrood is going to take pity on us and send momey here when it serves their interests better to throw it around as bribes for votes in the central belt, as that's where the numbers are that matter as to whether they stay on their gravy train or not, it doesn't matter how we vote, as in the bigger picture our influence whoever we vote in is minimal, the support the local SNP branch was getting from Head Office and the quality of candidates they've put forward in both Scottish and national elections in the recent past is proof enough that they really don't care what happens here.

 

We're on our own to sink, we can choose between spending our reserves to plug the gap in Government funding either quickly or slowly, but until its all spent there will be no compassion or fairness coming this way out of Holyrood, only empty promises and flowery talking, and any compassion even then will only come if we go cap in hand and do a lot of begging. Or we can take on Holyrood at their own game, with the right research, planning and tactics any Council, including this one, could, back Holyrood in to a corner where they had to choose between honouring their obligations to the entire populations in a reasonable and fair manner, or face the real prospect of being painted so black their chances of holding on to power were all but wiped out. That unfortunately seems to be the last thing on our lot's mind though, given that the only reported reaction from our great white leader to yet another funding reduction was to scuttle away with his tail between his legs muttering about "more cutbacks to keep within the Edinburgh enforced budget". What happened to fighting for our fair share? I doesn't need much midder wit to know that if you just meekly and submissive accept whatever you're offered, you're very liable to be offered even less next time round - and we are, time and time again. Yet those on top of teh ttem here let it happen over and over again. Things will get worse regardless, but they'd get worse a whole lot more slowly if Edinburgh were a bit nervous of just what sort of broadside was about to be unleashed on them from these northern wastelands unless they sent enough to keep our protestations down to a dull roar.

 

'Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat the same mistakes' or something like that is how the adage goes - History tells us that between 1500 and 1900 we were lorded over by the Scottish establishment who systematically ground both the place and the people in to the ground by creaming off almost all of the lion's share in the better times and ignoring folk's needs in the harder ones. History aso tells us that in the 15 years or so since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree in the 100+ years we've managed to largely stay out from under their thumb.....The thumb is now well and truly back, and if you want to have a general idea of how the remainder of this century will unfold politically, go check your history for the period 1600-1900 and the attitude of those who held power then, as the immediate future will be the same MO, only adapted to suit modern society and lifestyles.

 

The Council themselves could do much to put their own house in order as well, which would minimise the need for cuts in the actual service delivery. They're sitting on a grossly bloated over-complicated management system, and using many equally over complicated and un-necessary management and admin procedures and systems, not to mention the slew of totally un-necessary 'non-job' positons, all of which are drawing salaries and incurring costs needlessly. The place would run as well, probably better in fact, if all the desk bound elements between the elected members and the front line staff were completely redesigned and streamlined with an emphasis on minimalisation, effectiveness and efficiency, and yield a scarily surprising amount in savings, but there seems no stomach within the organsation to even explore that avenue.


Edited by borderhole24, 17 December 2017 - 08:34 PM.


#9 Mr.Brown

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:05 PM

^Think you forgot your comment?

#10 Ghostrider

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 05:29 AM

What the Scottish Lairds did to Shetland was being done all over Scotland, but the Scottish establishment were and are still more likely to be found in the palace of Westminster than in Holyrood.

 

There's a Scottish establishment in both Westminster and Holyrood, the old guard had to either adapt and integrate or die, and they'd had it too damn good for far too long to choose to die.

 

When tempered with input from the rest of the UK the excesses of the Scot's nature that was worst for us, have, broadly speaking, been curtailed in 'one size fits all' UK legislation, that check and balance is lost with the 'new' establishment in Edinburgh. The 'new' establishment additionally isn't helped by being largely founded and underpinned by former factions of the Westminster Scottish establishment who smelled easier and richer pickings in Holyrood than their talents could ever aspire to in Westminster, and new faces learning off them and using them as role models.

 

In a nutshell, the Scottish establishment in Westminster is capable of doing us far less harm than the Scottish establishment in Edinburgh, and not because the English, Welsh or Irish dislike us less than the Scots, but on account of the diversity of input from east, west and south througout the UK combining to create governance best suited to all of them by default is also doing the same for us, and the fact that we're so far away from Westminster, that they have little choice but admit they have no idea about anything up here, and at least pretend to listen to us when we shout at them. Holyrood doesn't even do that, their own rhetoric proves over an over again that they see everywhere from Flugga to the Borders and from Rockall to the east coast as one lump of sameness, and one size will fit all. Bad enough in itself, but exacerbated greatly by the current control freakish obsession in Holyrood to centralise everything, which they've done in just about all but name. When you actually dig in and discover just how little power and influence local councils have now, its no wonder everything they do is a laughable disaster, as the vast majority of major decisions these days are taken by hired staff, and the decisions on the finer points of the day to day running of councils are also in the hands of hired staff, all acting on orders direct from Edinburgh, Councillors merely get to tweak the general direction of things a little in the middle as it passes them by, that is all.

 

One of the Scottish seperatist's battle cries is 'London is too remote to govern us' and 'We're being ruled by a government we didn't elect'. I'm not disputing that, and if they wish to go their own way on the strength of those feelings, they're more than welcome to have at it anytime they like as far as I'm concerned. However, if they do, they're going to have to acknowledge and address the fact that we are as remote from Edinburgh as Edinburgh is from London, you could perhaps even argue more remote given that while the actual distances are similar, Edinburgh/London is a wholly land journey, while circa 200 miles of Shetland/Edinburgh is over water, and that we've never returned a Labour or SNP MP or MSP in the last 60+ years, so the 'governemnt we didn't elect' argument also applies equally to us with the inevitable Socialist government that will always exist in Holyrood. If they fail to acknowedge and address this, they'd just be demonstrating themselves to be selfish hypocrites, and why would anyone choose to be governrned by selfish hypocrites......

 

Much as it pains me to admit it, the Lairds were merely the visible face of the problem and therefore inevitably went down with the ship as whipping boys while others, perhaps equally as culpable if not more, sailed away scot free. The lairds certainly did what they did, and rightly deserve to be vilefied for it, but they only did it because those higher up the totem either allowed them to, or at least turned a blind eye. Lairds, of the kind we had in Shetland, for the most part were only on the lower edges of the Scottish establishment, if they even were elevated that far, there were plenty above them both in social and political status, who were part of the then Scottish establishment, who should have been keeping order on them but didn't. Those are the ones who walked away smelling of roses, and whose descendants, with apparently the same standards and attitudes who form much of today's Scottish establishment in both Westminster and Holyrood, and to whom too many newcomers stupidly and naively look to and follow.

 

The Lairds, per se, may have all but almost gone, but their legacy and the attitudes within certain circles which created and maintained the conditions that allowed them to establish and thrive are are both very much alive and well. While such things may never be totally eradicated, we are certainly doing ourselves no favours whatsoever as long as we continue to keep on sending part of the problem to represent us in Holyrood, as while you can take the Laird's boy out of Bressa, you can't take the Laird out of the boy.



#11 Capeesh

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 06:04 AM

The Westminster government has just slashed the Scottish block grant by a further £500 million, that is very harmful to us, the pie is shrinking again and again.

We need our representatives to have meaningful negotiations to try and secure a bigger slice to help fund our ferries, our councillors have been doing it now it's Tavish and Liams turn.

The Scottish transport minister said this:
"Quite unbelievable, brass neck of the Lib Dems who haven't brought internal ferry fares to the budget discussion table."

The SNP Highland and islands MSP Maree Todd said this:
"What they [Tavish and Liam] currently seem to be suggesting is that even if it were included in the budget, they would still not back it,"

Every party and every constituency is trying to get expensive concessions out of the Scottish government in exchange for the votes required to pass their budget, if our LibDem ones don't do the same we'll get bypassed.

Edited by Capeesh, 18 December 2017 - 06:09 AM.


#12 Ghostrider

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:15 AM

The Westminster government has just slashed the Scottish block grant by a further £500 million, that is very harmful to us, the pie is shrinking again and again.

 

It takes two to tango.

 

No brownie points for Westminster for giving less then, but what action did/has/is Holyrood initiate to address this?

 

Or are they of the same ilk as our local leader, woeful handwringing and lamenting, but submissively complying nontheless.

 

There's an onus on Westminster to supply adequate funding to Holyrood, but there's also an equal onus on Holyrood to ensure they obtain adequate funding from Westminster.

 

Maybe Westminster were cheapskates, maybe Holyrood were just absolute crap negotiators, maybe Holyrood are being selective with the facts/purposely letting Westminster do ths for political gain, maybe the bogeyman did it and ran away.....Without fuller details of what has and hasn't gone down, nobody can make a judgement call on who the biggest villain is.



#13 Capeesh

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:30 AM

It's no secret what the Westminster government are doing, there's no conspiracy, no tinfoil hat required, they're quite open about it.
Everyone in the UK has heard about Austerity, the Tories have fought and won 3 elections (the 1st with LibDem help) promising to slash spending and thats what they've done.
The fallout means they've taken an axe to the Scottish block grant as well as countless other things.
We have a unique opportunity in Shetland to lessen the blow by securing extra funding for our ferries which our councillors are trying feverishly to achieve.
Now we need our MSP's from Shetland and Orkney to do the same, from what they've said the Scottish government are open to negotiation regarding the matter, I'm in no doubt that if they don't, there's a real risk the Greens or some other party or constituency MSP's will negotiate concessions out of the Scottish government leaving the pot empty and us with diddly squat.

Edited by Capeesh, 19 December 2017 - 10:35 AM.

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#14 ll

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 02:11 PM

Sadly, it will likely prove that if external funding can't be found, something's going to give.

 

Current levels of subsidisation are clearly unsustainable at current service levels for either inter island ferries or the inter island flights and Tingwall airport.

 

Only thing that you can say s that they should have started on the tunnel programme instead of the last of the new ferries.


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#15 boby2013

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 02:54 PM

II

Yes I agree with your points. If Norwegian companies can put up 80% funding also private Investors put in 20% then let them start tunnels solve this ferries problems, for ferries to Aberdeen caithness were ever  there plenty companies come operate these lines if door is open, already Orkney ferry operator willing to come in summer service to caithness, Government and SIC must open doors let people operate links

do good service and cheaper to public, its proven tunnels works just local government afraid as they can’t build them self’s afraid let people do it and put delay in talks, there like going from horse to motor car first time in life, Norwegians are ready to cooperate in Shetland in fish factory’s tunnels there already in fish farms fishing vessels via loans, so sic don’t be afraid let investors in shetland help develop region houseing power stations  what ever required 



#16 Urabug

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 04:01 PM

Our ferries are part of the UK road/transport system and should be fully funded from the appropriate source, no different to the new Queensferry Crossing,motorways ect ,ect.

 

Private firms are unlikely to be interested unless they get heavily subsidized as they would be unable to operate without charging extortionate fares or go bust,and we the public would and could not afford this. 

 

Tunnels should be provided by the UK government either directly funded from Westminster or by allocating funds to the Scottish Parliament.

 

Giving more and more of our islands wealth to outside investors is a very shortsighted perspective and I fear would come back to haunt us.

 

What is Shetland should remain as much as possible "within" Shetland for the benefit  of future generations,and not allowed to be whittled away to satisfy a few outside entrepreneurs for there own advantage.



#17 ll

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 04:51 PM

Worst thing is that the longer this goes on, the more depopulated the Islands get, and the justification for tunnels gets eroded- so everyone moves to the part of Shetland where money can still be found for projects. If they made a tunnel to Yell, would save the need for a new pier at Toft, as the ferry piers could be used and Burravoe pier would be accessible as well. Secondary pupils could just get bussed to Brae- oh no!!.... that would take away from da toon and can’t have that.

#18 George.

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:14 PM

Worst thing is that the longer this goes on, the more depopulated the Islands get, and the justification for tunnels gets eroded- so everyone moves to the part of Shetland where money can still be found for projects. If they made a tunnel to Yell, would save the need for a new pier at Toft, as the ferry piers could be used and Burravoe pier would be accessible as well. Secondary pupils could just get bussed to Brae- oh no!!.... that would take away from da toon and can’t have that.

 

Not only that, but both sides of the tunnel, or bridge, would be accessible 24/7 regardless of how important a person, or persons, needing to get to the other side was. It may well only be for pleasure, but it would still be there, and it wouldn't mean getting the ferry skipper and his crew out of bed in the middle of the night.

 

It would mean that the islands would have a chance to stay alive.


Edited by George., 19 December 2017 - 08:20 PM.






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