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barred but apparently blameless


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53 replies to this topic

#1 brochbuilder

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 07:51 PM

Why even consider revoking the license of the Thule bar manager? Apparently this customer though barred
chose to enter the premises 2 or 3 times every month.
If he hadn't entered the premises though warned off many times, he wouldn't have got a broken wrist.
I think he should be prosecuted for wasting the court's time, and made to pay for his medical treatment.
The barman should be excused for his understandable reaction to this nuisance.
The world's gone mad.
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#2 playlist

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:40 PM

Really this should not be discussed here.  No-one has the right to hurt anyway and the law is there for a reason, okay.

 

In effect, what you are saying is that you would not mind at all if you were dealt with life changing consequences on a night out when it was no fault of your own then.


Edited by playlist, 13 March 2018 - 08:44 PM.


#3 Colin

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:57 PM

I don't see any reason why it should not (in general terms) be discussed.  After all, it covers 'rules' that we all have to live by.

 

Personally, my sympathy lies with the bar manager and, I agree that some sort of action should have been taken against the 'offender'(?)

 

However, being barred from licensed premises is a matter for the owner/operator/licensee and does not, in itself, indicate any kind of 'criminal guilt'.

 

What the manager should have done is call the police to get the guy removed each and every time the offender(?) entered the bar.



#4 brochbuilder

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:03 PM

Well Playlist, if I was trying to enter premises where I had no right to be, and on a regular basis
, then I don't really think you could say it was no fault of my own.
This guy got a broken wrist because he wouldn't be told. His demise came through his own idiocy, he
was presumably barred for a reason.
There will always be a bleeding heart somewhere about whatever the circumstances. Save your sympathy
for deserving causes.

#5 playlist

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:25 PM

Everyone is deserving of honesty and decency and the right to go about in this world without being hurt, do not hurt people for no reason and I am not commenting on this anymore, all you who have commented clearly do not have a heart at all it appears and love bullying fighters who have no reason to hurt anyone and have no right to do such things to take the law into their own hands, if they do they take the consequences whatever they may be for whatever they have done, that is why there is a law and I certainly hope that police and officials enforce it.  I can't say that they do though in every case.  You have just shown me what you are personally like on this topic and it is not very nice at all.

 

If someone caused severe life threatening injuries to any of you who have commented, then clearly you would not care a damn at all and would live happily with it and think that person who caused that to you did right!!!!!!!! well, well, that is what you are saying. 

 

Say what you wish I will not be commenting anymore on this topic as you have shown what you are.  Maybe some day you will live with any life threatening thing and then just make sure you are happy as that is the just of what you are saying and no-one requires to be taken to justice for hurting yourself then.


Edited by playlist, 13 March 2018 - 09:30 PM.


#6 Colin

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:30 PM

Does that mean we can discuss it just so long as we agree with you.?

 

I think that you will need to accept that not everyone thinks the way that you do and that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

No point coming on here and trying to 'dictate' the discussion..



#7 Suffererof1crankymofo

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:39 PM

Perhaps the licence was up for debate because no matter what the provocation, a licensee is expected to behave impeccably at all times.  Standards fell.  Folk have lost their licences for less.



#8 playlist

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:46 PM

So the drinker walks down the street, falls over and seriously hurt, you would all walk by and not help, that is the just of you lot, clearly you would be okay with everyone walking by and not helping you too.  You personally get pushed, fall down on concrete knocking your head as you go down, unconscious, never to recover and die and you all think that would be excellent behaviour from the person who hit you too, as with what you are all stating, for heavens sake.  You are entitled to your own opinion, I did not state you were not, you are dictating, off shetlink now as with this of how you are.


Edited by playlist, 13 March 2018 - 10:52 PM.


#9 Ghostrider

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:01 PM

If you've been told repeatedly you're not welcome someplace, and persist in sticking your nose in there again and again, you needed be surprised if someone breaks it for you....In fact, you probably should be surprised if someone doesn't.

 

Okay, its allegedly not cool to break and damage random people, even if they've gotten on your last nerve, probably more times than you care to think about, but 'accidents' happen.....and some 'accidents' are perfect karma. 'nuff said.

 

Trying to sup pints with a broken wrist is going to cramp anyone's style......Sometimes such things are necessary.....probably.


Edited by Ghostrider, 13 March 2018 - 11:03 PM.

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#10 brochbuilder

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:09 PM

Well Playlist, I thought you weren't going to post any more, couldn't resist another though eh?
I suppose the barman should have phoned the police on every occasion, I would think they would been
a little peeved with this guy too after repeated calls.
If they had finally dragged him off to the cells, I suppose he would have complained about bruising.
At the end of the day he had a broken wrist here, hardly life threatening.
Let's just hope he has learnt a lesson here and doesn't go around annoying other people, perhaps
provoking them into a criminal record situation. The law does or should make allowances for that provocation.

#11 aaa22

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:23 PM

I think playlist is getting abit extreme. Though ghostrider makes a good grey point. We don’t really know what happened, but if your drunk let’s say most people i have seen won’t budge if they dont want to. The point being debated is (I feel) is should the licenser have essentially a mark on his/her card. hmmm..... if it was a deliberate act to brake parts off someone then yes most definitely. but.... if the person was asked to leave and made a seen and was dragged, pushed out and fell over.... well.... if he had left that would not have happened.

Thought for playlist. I am drunk and am walking to Scalloway from Lerwick. I am hit by a car because I was walking in the middle of the road, its dark and I have my dark jacket on. My legs get broken, there is only scuffing done to the car. Should the driver get points for careless driving? or is it the councils fault there should be a lit foot path between Lerwick and Scalloway? or is it my fault? (I feel it would be my problem)



#12 Colin

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:57 PM

I doubt very much that the manager set out to deliberately injure the "victim" and, that any injury was accidental.

The fine was harsh to say the least.

 

However, if I had been banned from a premises, why would I "try it on" a couple of time each month knowing that being ejected from the place was the likely outcome?

 

Having worked in a bar, it's very easy to make a few (not so well) educated guesses here.



#13 magnie ii

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 02:00 AM

anybody who has dealt with this man will know how difficult it is and how offensive, racist, bigoted threatening he can be the bar staff of this establishment and many others dread him darkening there doors i don't think he has been welcome in any premises in lerwick for a long time the only person i have sympathy for is the member of staff now saddled with a criminal record and an endorsement on his licence all because somebody couldn't do without a drink.



#14 mikeyboy

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 12:10 PM

Discuss or not just not sure why it is posted in this section.

 

"Use this section to discuss the Shetlink site"



#15 brochbuilder

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 01:48 PM

Dont see why it cant be discussed, incidents such as this can affect any of us, might well be
caught in the middle.
Need to have faith in the justice system and this wasn't a fair result. Simple as that!
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#16 Scorrie

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 07:17 AM

Everyone is deserving of honesty and decency and the right to go about in this world without being hurt, do not hurt people for no reason and I am not commenting on this anymore, all you who have commented clearly do not have a heart at all it appears and love bullying fighters who have no reason to hurt anyone and have no right to do such things to take the law into their own hands, if they do they take the consequences whatever they may be for whatever they have done, that is why there is a law and I certainly hope that police and officials enforce it.  I can't say that they do though in every case.  You have just shown me what you are personally like on this topic and it is not very nice at all.

 

If someone caused severe life threatening injuries to any of you who have commented, then clearly you would not care a damn at all and would live happily with it and think that person who caused that to you did right!!!!!!!! well, well, that is what you are saying. 

 

Say what you wish I will not be commenting anymore on this topic as you have shown what you are.  Maybe some day you will live with any life threatening thing and then just make sure you are happy as that is the just of what you are saying and no-one requires to be taken to justice for hurting yourself then.

 

 

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that the law is wrong. What folk are saying is that this clown ended up with a broken wrist through their own stupidity and repeated refusal to carry out a reasonable and lawful request. Not through a direct malicious action by the barman. Unfortunately the courts have taken a different view.

 

If you're so keen on this 'everyone is nice and fluffy' stance, then I suggest you spend a fair chunk of time on the doors in any town centre on a night-time with the bar and door staff.

 

You'll soon change your mind when you have to deal with it yourself.


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#17 Windwalker

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 08:38 AM

 
 
I don't believe anyone is suggesting that the law is wrong. What folk are saying is that this clown ended up with a broken wrist through their own stupidity and repeated refusal to carry out a reasonable and lawful request. Not through a direct malicious action by the barman. Unfortunately the courts have taken a different view.
 
If you're so keen on this 'everyone is nice and fluffy' stance, then I suggest you spend a fair chunk of time on the doors in any town centre on a night-time with the bar and door staff.
 
You'll soon change your mind when you have to deal with it yourself.


I don’t think this is about ‘everyone is nice and fluffy’ it’s about what we are allowed to do within the law, it’s to do with taking the law into your own hands, and this is something that, if allowed to happen can blur the boundaries. Where do you draw the line.?

You say ‘not through the direct malicious actions by the barman’ well perhaps he was not malicious, but he decided to take direct action, which resulted in the injury of someone else. The judge was right that an offence was committed, and could have also removed his licence, however I would think he carefully weighed up the circumstances of the case and accepted the the injured party had some responsibility in the case.

Whilst I have every sympathy concerning the difficulty and stress related to the job of doormen, it is clear that they undergo comprehensive training to deal with these situations and they are required by law to deal with them in accordance to the rules that govern at the time.

In the olden days we would have just taken this chap outside and taught him a lesson, but today this is not only frowned on but would put ourselves at risk of prosecution. Had the police been called, it would have been the other party facing the judge.

I for one would not have the patience to deal with drunk annoying, mouthy people, which is why I would never become a doorman, but those who do choose this line of work must carry it out in full accordance with their training and the law. I remember the olden days where untrained body builder doormen dished out thumpings to idiots who were too drunk to defend themselves, thankfully things have moved on where doormen are concerned. Unfortunately there are still far too many drunk idiots.
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#18 brochbuilder

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 09:58 AM

Considering the situation in Police Scotland, does anyone really believe they have the manpower to
respond immediately to every drunken idiot demanding entry or refusing to leave licensed premises?

There would need to be a full time task force, and the details of every persistent offender would
need to be catalogued on that £60,000,000 computer that doesn't work. The SNP haven't had much luck
with computers, have they?

The barman and the doorman will always be at the sharp end here, join the real world!

#19 brochbuilder

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 12:14 PM

Or alternatively in a deeply caring and concerned society perhaps we could insist on there being a fully
qualified social worker on the payroll. I'm sure such a person would cope perfectly well with this
kind of individual, by talking and reasoning with him for an hour or two until the police arrive. No
need for a doorman at all perhaps. If extra help was required could always phone the Samaritans or
the Salvation Army.
No need for a doorman at all perhaps at any venue, just make offenders a nice cup of tea to calm them
down.
No more ugly scenes with policemen struggling with drunken idiots, out of control crackpots spitting,
lashing out and kicking at officers trying to arrest them. No more, (as Windwalker describes), muscle
bound doormen thumping these people obviously too drunk to defend themselves. Really!!!

#20 Windwalker

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 01:39 PM

Or alternatively in a deeply caring and concerned society perhaps we could insist on there being a fullyqualified social worker on the payroll. I'm sure such a person would cope perfectly well with thiskind of individual, by talking and reasoning with him for an hour or two until the police arrive. Noneed for a doorman at all perhaps. If extra help was required could always phone the Samaritans orthe Salvation Army.No need for a doorman at all perhaps at any venue, just make offenders a nice cup of tea to calm themdown.No more ugly scenes with policemen struggling with drunken idiots, out of control crackpots spitting,lashing out and kicking at officers trying to arrest them. No more, (as Windwalker describes), musclebound doormen thumping these people obviously too drunk to defend themselves. Really!!!


Read what I said, muscle bound doormen thumping punters was, thankfully, a thing of the past..luckily we now see trained doormen who in the main operate on a professional level and do a great, albeit difficult job. Are you suggesting this was not an issue in the past.

As for the position of police, I believe the Shetland force would have been on the scene relatively quickly and dealt with the situation. As for the waffle re social services etc, I never suggested that nor would I think a pub would be a suitable place for that to happen. Mind you if someone is causing this amount of constant problems, I would suggest help of some kind could be required.

I do feel for staff who have to put up with this type of behaviour and I know how frustrating customers of this nature can be, but if we start a free for all as to how we deal with them, it will end in a disaster. Anyone with a drop o midder wit, will know if you shove a drunk person, they are likely to lose their balance, when they fall their reactions are slow and often they go down like a sack o tatties, and often the head can hit the ground hard.

Had this chap not fallen and broken his wrist, no one would have shown concern that he was “helped” out the door, but when we decide to make contact with others we do so knowing there are risks and doormen unlike the rest of us are trained to know the risks.

Would it be ok for police officers to shove annoying or drunk people over resulting in broken wrists? Somehow I don’t think so, and I’m sure the police have to deal with as many awkward individuals.

Whilst it is regrettable that the wrong person ended in court, the law is there to protect us all.